HAMMOND-TIPLER, PHYSICISTS FROM HELL...?

[George Hammond]

HAMMOND-TIPLER, PHYSICISTS FROM HELL...?


Some would expect me to try and flatter Frank Tipler since he
is a maverick physicist and so am I... both of us because of our
interest in God and Religion.

But no, Frank Tipler wouldn't raise a finger to help me, nor
would any other establishment physicist. They're all too jealous
and egocentric. So I won't waste my breath.

Tipler is author of the bestselling _Physics of Immortality_
(1994) a book considered by most physicists to be an embarrasment
to Science since it claims to scientifically prove there is
"Life After Death".

Tipler is a tenured professor of Astronomy at Tulane Univ. and
a well known collegue of Prof. John D. Barrow FRS also an
internationally recognized Astrophysicist. Up until about 1992
Tipler was a frequent coauthor with Barrow of exotic high level
Relativity and Astrophysical papers published in Nature, Physical
Review etc. Both men are are international bigshots, extremely
competent, and quite famous in conventional Physics.

However, around 1980 Barrow became interested in something called
the "anthropic Principle" and apparently got Tipler interested.
This resulted in their book _The Anthropic Cosmological Principle_
in 1986. Apparently, the success of this book went to Tipler's head
and got him off on the road to Religion resulting in the _Physics of
Immortality_ in 1994. I notice Tipler has not published any papers
with Barrow since then... probably Barrow was as shocked as everyone
else at Tipler's embarrasing obsession with religion.



At any rate, my message is simply this:


1)
Tipler's book is the most important (speculative)
scientific work about the Physics of God ever printed,
and Frank Tipler is probably (2nd only to myself) now
the most important scientist in the Science-Religion
field today.

2)
All this, DESPITE the fact that Frank Tipler's theory
of God is ridiculously incorrect due to a fundamental
faux pas of the first magnitude, perhaps the biggest
scientific gaffe since Einstein invented the Cosmological
Constant which Einstein later called "the biggest blunder
of my life".


3)
This Tipler blunder, certainly the "biggest blunder of
Frank Tipler's life" would be extremly funny if in fact
Tipler's book wasn't so significant in a different light
which will be mentioned later, and which is the justification
for my assessment given in 1) above.

4)
It turns out that Tipler in his amateur religious enthusiasm
simply went off half cocked trying to explain "Eternal Life"
and naievely presumed (like most lay people) that "Eternal Life"
meant "living forever". Fact is, as any competent student of
Religion knows "Eternal Life" does NOT mean "living forever"..
it means "living at full genotypic speed". Fact is, because of
the universal struggle for existence no one is fully grown
(such a person would be God in the flesh). Hence, none of us
is operating at full design (genotypic) speed or full (genotypic)
intelligence. the average human phenotype is only about 80%
full grown.. i.e.Phenotype=.8 Genotype. This (Secular Trend)
growth deficit is what causes the classical God of religion,
and is a commonly observed psychogical (perceptual) effect which
has been the central subject of Religion for thousands of years.
However, since this perceptual effect is so difficult to explain
to the average lay person (or even to a lay physicist like Tipler)
it is euphemistically referred to as "Eternal Life". However,
the notion of a person living for millions or billions of years
is only a HEURISTIC LAY EUPHEMISM.. which ironically, Frank Tipler
has taken literally, and in fact has apparently proven that
such a thing is even theoretically possible!
This of course would be a fascinating irony if it weren't for
the fact that in the course of Tipler's extrodinary efforts to
prove that "infinite life" (not to be confused with Eternal
Life) is actually possible... Tipler has in fact divulged and
even discovered enough physics to actually shed some important
light on the real credibility of Eternal Life, and in fact the
question of Life After Death itself!




OK... having explained how Tipler has managed to make a scientific
blunder on the order of Einstein's Cosmological Constant... let me
proceed to point out the true value of Tipler's work.


First, in his obsession to prove that it might be possible
to construct a life form that could "live forever", Tipler has
apparently brought the full force of mondern physics to bear
on the question of whether or not a computer "emulation" of a
person could be "alive". His conclusion is, based on the
indistiguishability of identical particles, that YES, a
perfect emulation could be "alive".
Now bear in mind, Tipler is considered a 1st rank physicist,
and is well known to people like Penrose, Hawking, Weinberg
and others, all of whom he has jointly published papers with
and/or had innumerable private discussions. He is a full professor
of Mathematical Physics at Tulane University. He was at one time
John A. Wheeler's postdoctoral assistant! His book lists among
others having commented on his book and had discussions with him
about it before publication:

Jacob Bekenstein
David Deutsch
Andrei Linde
John Polkinghorne
Walter Thirring
John A. wheeler

All of this tells us that the "computer emulation" hypothesis
(given a big enough computer) IS a viable no nonsense scientific
thesis.



OK, now I will omit a discussion of Tipler's "blunder" in
assuming that this computer would have to be built sometime
in the future and be of Galactic size... (his Omega Point theory)..
and get right to the RELEVANT implication for Life After Death
as it is historically known and conceived.


HISTORICALLY, the Christian Religion believes that Man will
"rise after death" in a "spiritual body" (St. Paul, I Cor:15).

Traditionally, it has been commonly believed that if this is true,
that what we are most likely talking about is some kind of post
mortem "dream" state.

Of course the traditional objection to that theory is that "dead
brains can't dream", so how could we dream of life after we are dead?

BUT, Hammond has pointed out that God has now been discovered to be
a relativistic Curvature of subjective spacetime, meaning that
God is a "Relativistic" phenomena.

That immediately raises the obvious speculation that life after death
is actually life before death, but is only "time dilated" so that
it APPEARS to take place after death when it actually doesn't!

According to Hammonds theory:

Hammond G.E.(2003) A Semiclassical Theory of God
Noetic Journal, Vol 4(3) July 2003, pp 231-244(Noetic Press)
Online copy at:
http://geocities.com/scientific_proof_of_god/Hammond5s1.html

The ungrown part of the brain (Freud's unconscious mind so called)
is constantly computing the "missing" part of our life (Heaven)
and this is stored at the atomic/particle physics level in the
brain. When we die, as a natural consequence of the death process,
this stored "log" of our missing life simply reads out or is read
by our consciousnes, which has now descended to this lower level
in accordance with the natural death process. Of course this
reading does not take place at neuronal speeds, it takes place a
quantum particle physics speeds... nanoseconds... but THEN..it is
liesurly "READ" by this particle physics consciousness in a "time
dilated coordinate system"... with a dilation factor of 10^15 or
more...thus dilating the last nanosecond of our life out into 5, 10
or 15 years! It is in THAT world, that we finally obtain "full
growth" and hence "Eternal Life".
This then, explains St. Paul's famous statment:

"We shall not all sleep, but we shall
all be changed.
In a moment, in the twinkling of an
eye, at the last trump.... the dead
shall be raised incorruptable, and
we shall be changed."

(I Cor 15:51)




What FRANK TIPLER has accomplished then, is to show us that the
HUMAN BRAIN is actually this "gigantic computer" he is talking
about, and that YES it does "emulate our body" and does
"resurrect" us to Eternal Life.

How has Tipler done this.... fact is Tipler has "independently
rediscovered" the classic Christian theory of Life After Death
wihtout even KNOWING it existed.. out of sheer religious
ignorance. Tipler is an "independent confirmation", and the most
modern scientific version, of what Christianity has already
postulated as a conjecture!
Combined with Hammond's result, that subjective reality is a
"curved version" of objective reality (a proven fact.. to 2 decimal
points), Tipler's "computer emulation" hypothesis becomes a credible
scientific reality.. tipler is the first indicaion that the
christian speculation ot "Life After Death" is actually a credible
scientific hypothesis!


Well... you can imagine how much I would like to talk to
Frank Tipler... but I'm sure he's too busy being a bigshot..
or too busy calculating the "Omega Point" to waste time
talking to a nobody M.S. physicist and experimenta psychologist
like me.

I tried eamiling him once or twice years ago.. but he never
answered... maybe you could send him an email and suggest he
talk to GEORGE HAMMOND.... his email address is:


..............................
Frank J.Tipler
Professor
Department of Mathematics
Tulane University

e-mail address:
tipler@[NOSPAM]math.tulane.edu

Delete "[NOSPAM]" to restore address
.............................


========================================
SCIENTIFIC PROOF OF GOD WEBSITE
http://geocities.com/scientific_proof_of_god
mirror site:
http://proof-of-god.freewebsitehosting.com
=======================================
Join COSA church (Church of the Scientific Advent)
Send a blank email to ***@hotmail.com
and your email address will be added to the
COSA discussion list (free, no obligation)
===========================
and please ask your news service to add:
alt.sci.relativistic-proof-of-god.moderated
===========================

[George E. Hammond]

HAMMOND-TIPLER, PHYSICISTS FROM HELL...?

Some would expect me to try and flatter Frank Tipler since he
is a maverick physicist and so am I... both of us because of our
interest in God and Religion.

But no, Frank Tipler wouldn't raise a finger to help me, nor
would any other establishment physicist. They're all too jealous
and egocentric. So I won't waste my breath.

Tipler is author of the bestselling _Physics of Immortality_
(1994) a book considered by most physicists to be an embarrasment
to Science since it claims to scientifically prove there is
"Life After Death".

Tipler is a tenured professor of Astronomy at Tulane Univ. and
a well known collegue of Prof. John D. Barrow FRS also an
internationally recognized Astrophysicist. Up until about 1992
Tipler was a frequent coauthor with Barrow of exotic high level
Relativity and Astrophysical papers published in Nature, Physical
Review etc. Both men are are international bigshots, extremely
competent, and quite famous in conventional Physics.

However, around 1980 Barrow became interested in something called
the "anthropic Principle" and apparently got Tipler interested.
This resulted in their book _The Anthropic Cosmological Principle_
in 1986. Apparently, the success of this book went to Tipler's head
and got him off on the road to Religion resulting in the _Physics of
Immortality_ in 1994. I notice Tipler has not published any papers
with Barrow since then... probably Barrow was as shocked as everyone
else at Tipler's embarrasing obsession with religion.



At any rate, my message is simply this:


1)
Tipler's book is the most important (speculative)
scientific work about the Physics of God ever printed,
and Frank Tipler is probably (2nd only to myself) now
the most important scientist in the Science-Religion
field today.

2)
All this, DESPITE the fact that Frank Tipler's theory
of God is ridiculously incorrect due to a fundamental
faux pas of the first magnitude, perhaps the biggest
scientific gaffe since Einstein invented the Cosmological
Constant which Einstein later called "the biggest blunder
of my life".


3)
This Tipler blunder, certainly the "biggest blunder of
Frank Tipler's life" would be extremly funny if in fact
Tipler's book wasn't so significant in a different light
which will be mentioned later, and which is the justification
for my assessment given in 1) above.

4)
It turns out that Tipler in his amateur religious enthusiasm
simply went off half cocked trying to explain "Eternal Life"
and naievely presumed (like most lay people) that "Eternal Life"
meant "living forever". Fact is, as any competent student of
Religion knows "Eternal Life" does NOT mean "living forever"..
it means "living at full genotypic speed". Fact is, because of
the universal struggle for existence no one is fully grown
(such a person would be God in the flesh). Hence, none of us
is operating at full design (genotypic) speed or full (genotypic)
intelligence. the average human phenotype is only about 80%
full grown.. i.e.Phenotype=.8 Genotype. This (Secular Trend)
growth deficit is what causes the classical God of religion,
and is a commonly observed psychogical (perceptual) effect which
has been the central subject of Religion for thousands of years.
However, since this perceptual effect is so difficult to explain
to the average lay person (or even to a lay physicist like Tipler)
it is euphemistically referred to as "Eternal Life". However,
the notion of a person living for millions or billions of years
is only a HEURISTIC LAY EUPHEMISM.. which ironically, Frank Tipler
has taken literally, and in fact has apparently proven that
such a thing is even theoretically possible!
This of course would be a fascinating irony if it weren't for
the fact that in the course of Tipler's extrodinary efforts to
prove that "infinite life" (not to be confused with Eternal
Life) is actually possible... Tipler has in fact divulged and
even discovered enough physics to actually shed some important
light on the real credibility of Eternal Life, and in fact the
question of Life After Death itself!




OK... having explained how Tipler has managed to make a scientific
blunder on the order of Einstein's Cosmological Constant... let me
proceed to point out the true value of Tipler's work.


First, in his obsession to prove that it might be possible
to construct a life form that could "live forever", Tipler has
apparently brought the full force of mondern physics to bear
on the question of whether or not a computer "emulation" of a
person could be "alive". His conclusion is, based on the
indistiguishability of identical particles, that YES, a
perfect emulation could be "alive".
Now bear in mind, Tipler is considered a 1st rank physicist,
and is well known to people like Penrose, Hawking, Weinberg
and others, all of whom he has jointly published papers with
and/or had innumerable private discussions. He is a full professor
of Mathematical Physics at Tulane University. He was at one time
John A. Wheeler's postdoctoral assistant! His book lists among
others having commented on his book and had discussions with him
about it before publication:

Jacob Bekenstein
David Deutsch
Andrei Linde
John Polkinghorne
Walter Thirring
John A. wheeler

All of this tells us that the "computer emulation" hypothesis
(given a big enough computer) IS a viable no nonsense scientific
thesis.



OK, now I will omit a discussion of Tipler's "blunder" in
assuming that this computer would have to be built sometime
in the future and be of Galactic size... (his Omega Point theory)..
and get right to the RELEVANT implication for Life After Death
as it is historically known and conceived.


HISTORICALLY, the Christian Religion believes that Man will
"rise after death" in a "spiritual body" (St. Paul, I Cor:15).

Traditionally, it has been commonly believed that if this is true,
that what we are most likely talking about is some kind of post
mortem "dream" state.

Of course the traditional objection to that theory is that "dead
brains can't dream", so how could we dream of life after we are dead?

BUT, Hammond has pointed out that God has now been discovered to be
a relativistic Curvature of subjective spacetime, meaning that
God is a "Relativistic" phenomena.

That immediately raises the obvious speculation that life after death
is actually life before death, but is only "time dilated" so that
it APPEARS to take place after death when it actually doesn't!

According to Hammonds theory:

Hammond G.E.(2003) A Semiclassical Theory of God
Noetic Journal, Vol 4(3) July 2003, pp 231-244(Noetic Press)
Online copy at:
http://geocities.com/scientific_proof_of_god/Hammond5s1.html

The ungrown part of the brain (Freud's unconscious mind so called)
is constantly computing the "missing" part of our life (Heaven)
and this is stored at the atomic/particle physics level in the
brain. When we die, as a natural consequence of the death process,
this stored "log" of our missing life simply reads out or is read
by our consciousnes, which has now descended to this lower level
in accordance with the natural death process. Of course this
reading does not take place at neuronal speeds, it takes place a
quantum particle physics speeds... nanoseconds... but THEN..it is
liesurly "READ" by this particle physics consciousness in a "time
dilated coordinate system"... with a dilation factor of 10^15 or
more...thus dilating the last nanosecond of our life out into 5, 10
or 15 years! It is in THAT world, that we finally obtain "full
growth" and hence "Eternal Life".
This then, explains St. Paul's famous statment:

"We shall not all sleep, but we shall
all be changed.
In a moment, in the twinkling of an
eye, at the last trump.... the dead
shall be raised incorruptable, and
we shall be changed."

(I Cor 15:51)




What FRANK TIPLER has accomplished then, is to show us that the
HUMAN BRAIN is actually this "gigantic computer" he is talking
about, and that YES it does "emulate our body" and does
"resurrect" us to Eternal Life.

How has Tipler done this.... fact is Tipler has "independently
rediscovered" the classic Christian theory of Life After Death
wihtout even KNOWING it existed.. out of sheer religious
ignorance. Tipler is an "independent confirmation", and the most
modern scientific version, of what Christianity has already
postulated as a conjecture!
Combined with Hammond's result, that subjective reality is a
"curved version" of objective reality (a proven fact.. to 2 decimal
points), Tipler's "computer emulation" hypothesis becomes a credible
scientific reality.. tipler is the first indicaion that the
christian speculation ot "Life After Death" is actually a credible
scientific hypothesis!


Well... you can imagine how much I would like to talk to
Frank Tipler... but I'm sure he's too busy being a bigshot..
or too busy calculating the "Omega Point" to waste time
talking to a nobody M.S. physicist and experimenta psychologist
like me.

I tried eamiling him once or twice years ago.. but he never
answered... maybe you could send him an email and suggest he
talk to GEORGE HAMMOND.... his email address is:


..............................
Frank J.Tipler
Professor
Department of Mathematics
Tulane University

e-mail address:
tipler@[NOSPAM]math.tulane.edu

Delete "[NOSPAM]" to restore address
.............................


========================================
SCIENTIFIC PROOF OF GOD WEBSITE
http://geocities.com/scientific_proof_of_god
mirror site:
http://proof-of-god.freewebsitehosting.com
=======================================
Join COSA church (Church of the Scientific Advent)
Send a blank email to ***@hotmail.com
and your email address will be added to the
COSA discussion list (free, no obligation)
===========================
and please ask your news service to add:
alt.sci.relativistic-proof-of-god.moderated
===========================

[JohnM]

Post by George Hammond
HAMMOND-TIPLER, PHYSICISTS FROM HELL...?
Some would expect me to try and flatter Frank Tipler since he
is a maverick physicist and so am I... both of us because of our
interest in God and Religion.

Yeah.. I've heard that somewhere.

Post by George Hammond
But no, Frank Tipler wouldn't raise a finger to help me, nor
would any other establishment physicist. They're all too jealous
and egocentric. So I won't waste my breath.

Too kooky for your fellow kooks, george?

Post by George Hammond
Tipler is author of the bestselling _Physics of Immortality_
(1994) a book considered by most physicists to be an embarrasment
to Science since it claims to scientifically prove there is
"Life After Death".

george hammond, on the other hand, is apparently not an embarassment
with his hallucinigenic 'scientific proofs of gods'..

Post by George Hammond
Tipler is a tenured professor of Astronomy at Tulane Univ. and
a well known collegue of Prof. John D. Barrow FRS also an
internationally recognized Astrophysicist. Up until about 1992
Tipler was a frequent coauthor with Barrow of exotic high level
Relativity and Astrophysical papers published in Nature, Physical
Review etc. Both men are are international bigshots, extremely
competent, and quite famous in conventional Physics.

uh huh..

Post by George Hammond
However, around 1980 Barrow became interested in something called
the "anthropic Principle" and apparently got Tipler interested.
This resulted in their book _The Anthropic Cosmological Principle_
in 1986. Apparently, the success of this book went to Tipler's head
and got him off on the road to Religion resulting in the _Physics of
Immortality_ in 1994. I notice Tipler has not published any papers
with Barrow since then... probably Barrow was as shocked as everyone
else at Tipler's embarrasing obsession with religion.

Lucky you, it's someone else who has an embarrasing obsession with
religion..
Yes, I've noticed some simplicity in your messages.

Post by George Hammond
1)
Tipler's book is the most important (speculative)
scientific work about the Physics of God ever printed,
and Frank Tipler is probably (2nd only to myself) now
the most important scientist in the Science-Religion
field today.

Wow, you came in first in your own personal Special Olympics..

Post by George Hammond
2)
All this, DESPITE the fact that Frank Tipler's theory
of God is ridiculously incorrect due to a fundamental
faux pas of the first magnitude, perhaps the biggest
scientific gaffe since Einstein invented the Cosmological
Constant which Einstein later called "the biggest blunder
of my life".

All the kooks love the fact that Einstein could have been mistaken about
something.. either about the COsmoligical Constant, or about being
mistaken about it- either way, he was wrong about something once.

Post by George Hammond
3)
This Tipler blunder, certainly the "biggest blunder of
Frank Tipler's life" would be extremly funny if in fact
Tipler's book wasn't so significant in a different light
which will be mentioned later, and which is the justification
for my assessment given in 1) above.

(Yawn)

Post by George Hammond
4)
It turns out that Tipler in his amateur religious enthusiasm
simply went off half cocked trying to explain "Eternal Life"
and naievely presumed (like most lay people) that "Eternal Life"
meant "living forever". Fact is, as any competent student of
Religion knows "Eternal Life" does NOT mean "living forever"..
it means "living at full genotypic speed".

I've known a couple of competant students of religion and they didn't
have this point of view. They were a bit kooky but they didn't come
close to you george..

(snip the rest of george's raving hallucination)

george, I told you before- you're pissing your god off. He doesn't give
time off for mental illness, and your insistance on ignoring this after
I've pointed this out to you imperils your immortal soul. I have shown
you the light and the way- ignorance, george, that's what your god
requires, ignorance, not stupidity. Crafty ignorance with the superior
smugness that can't come from the exclusively stupid, but from the
well-indoctrinated ignorant.

Save your soul george, understand that this fascination with speed of
living is nothing but childhood memories of masturbation in the back
seat of the family station wagon being interrupted by motion sickness.
I'm here to help you, but you have to listen to me and do what I say-
donations will help to move you along in your spiritual quest, cash is
preferred.

John

[George E. Hammond]

HAMMOND-TIPLER, PHYSICISTS FROM HELL...?

Some would expect me to try and flatter Frank Tipler since he
is a maverick physicist and so am I... both of us because of our
interest in God and Religion.

But no, Frank Tipler wouldn't raise a finger to help me, nor
would any other establishment physicist. They're all too jealous
and egocentric. So I won't waste my breath.

Tipler is author of the bestselling _Physics of Immortality_
(1994) a book considered by most physicists to be an embarrasment
to Science since it claims to scientifically prove there is
"Life After Death".

Tipler is a tenured professor of Astronomy at Tulane Univ. and
a well known collegue of Prof. John D. Barrow FRS also an
internationally recognized Astrophysicist. Up until about 1992
Tipler was a frequent coauthor with Barrow of exotic high level
Relativity and Astrophysical papers published in Nature, Physical
Review etc. Both men are are international bigshots, extremely
competent, and quite famous in conventional Physics.

However, around 1980 Barrow became interested in something called
the "anthropic Principle" and apparently got Tipler interested.
This resulted in their book _The Anthropic Cosmological Principle_
in 1986. Apparently, the success of this book went to Tipler's head
and got him off on the road to Religion resulting in the _Physics of
Immortality_ in 1994. I notice Tipler has not published any papers
with Barrow since then... probably Barrow was as shocked as everyone
else at Tipler's embarrasing obsession with religion.



At any rate, my message is simply this:


1)
Tipler's book is the most important (speculative)
scientific work about the Physics of God ever printed,
and Frank Tipler is probably (2nd only to myself) now
the most important scientist in the Science-Religion
field today.

2)
All this, DESPITE the fact that Frank Tipler's theory
of God is ridiculously incorrect due to a fundamental
faux pas of the first magnitude, perhaps the biggest
scientific gaffe since Einstein invented the Cosmological
Constant which Einstein later called "the biggest blunder
of my life".


3)
This Tipler blunder, certainly the "biggest blunder of
Frank Tipler's life" would be extremly funny if in fact
Tipler's book wasn't so significant in a different light
which will be mentioned later, and which is the justification
for my assessment given in 1) above.

4)
It turns out that Tipler in his amateur religious enthusiasm
simply went off half cocked trying to explain "Eternal Life"
and naievely presumed (like most lay people) that "Eternal Life"
meant "living forever". Fact is, as any competent student of
Religion knows "Eternal Life" does NOT mean "living forever"..
it means "living at full genotypic speed". Fact is, because of
the universal struggle for existence no one is fully grown
(such a person would be God in the flesh). Hence, none of us
is operating at full design (genotypic) speed or full (genotypic)
intelligence. the average human phenotype is only about 80%
full grown.. i.e.Phenotype=.8 Genotype. This (Secular Trend)
growth deficit is what causes the classical God of religion,
and is a commonly observed psychogical (perceptual) effect which
has been the central subject of Religion for thousands of years.
However, since this perceptual effect is so difficult to explain
to the average lay person (or even to a lay physicist like Tipler)
it is euphemistically referred to as "Eternal Life". However,
the notion of a person living for millions or billions of years
is only a HEURISTIC LAY EUPHEMISM.. which ironically, Frank Tipler
has taken literally, and in fact has apparently proven that
such a thing is even theoretically possible!
This of course would be a fascinating irony if it weren't for
the fact that in the course of Tipler's extrodinary efforts to
prove that "infinite life" (not to be confused with Eternal
Life) is actually possible... Tipler has in fact divulged and
even discovered enough physics to actually shed some important
light on the real credibility of Eternal Life, and in fact the
question of Life After Death itself!




OK... having explained how Tipler has managed to make a scientific
blunder on the order of Einstein's Cosmological Constant... let me
proceed to point out the true value of Tipler's work.


First, in his obsession to prove that it might be possible
to construct a life form that could "live forever", Tipler has
apparently brought the full force of mondern physics to bear
on the question of whether or not a computer "emulation" of a
person could be "alive". His conclusion is, based on the
indistiguishability of identical particles, that YES, a
perfect emulation could be "alive".
Now bear in mind, Tipler is considered a 1st rank physicist,
and is well known to people like Penrose, Hawking, Weinberg
and others, all of whom he has jointly published papers with
and/or had innumerable private discussions. He is a full professor
of Mathematical Physics at Tulane University. He was at one time
John A. Wheeler's postdoctoral assistant! His book lists among
others having commented on his book and had discussions with him
about it before publication:

Jacob Bekenstein
David Deutsch
Andrei Linde
John Polkinghorne
Walter Thirring
John A. wheeler

All of this tells us that the "computer emulation" hypothesis
(given a big enough computer) IS a viable no nonsense scientific
thesis.



OK, now I will omit a discussion of Tipler's "blunder" in
assuming that this computer would have to be built sometime
in the future and be of Galactic size... (his Omega Point theory)..
and get right to the RELEVANT implication for Life After Death
as it is historically known and conceived.


HISTORICALLY, the Christian Religion believes that Man will
"rise after death" in a "spiritual body" (St. Paul, I Cor:15).

Traditionally, it has been commonly believed that if this is true,
that what we are most likely talking about is some kind of post
mortem "dream" state.

Of course the traditional objection to that theory is that "dead
brains can't dream", so how could we dream of life after we are dead?

BUT, Hammond has pointed out that God has now been discovered to be
a relativistic Curvature of subjective spacetime, meaning that
God is a "Relativistic" phenomena.

That immediately raises the obvious speculation that life after death
is actually life before death, but is only "time dilated" so that
it APPEARS to take place after death when it actually doesn't!

According to Hammonds theory:

Hammond G.E.(2003) A Semiclassical Theory of God
Noetic Journal, Vol 4(3) July 2003, pp 231-244(Noetic Press)
Online copy at:
http://geocities.com/scientific_proof_of_god/Hammond5s1.html

The ungrown part of the brain (Freud's unconscious mind so called)
is constantly computing the "missing" part of our life (Heaven)
and this is stored at the atomic/particle physics level in the
brain. When we die, as a natural consequence of the death process,
this stored "log" of our missing life simply reads out or is read
by our consciousnes, which has now descended to this lower level
in accordance with the natural death process. Of course this
reading does not take place at neuronal speeds, it takes place a
quantum particle physics speeds... nanoseconds... but THEN..it is
liesurly "READ" by this particle physics consciousness in a "time
dilated coordinate system"... with a dilation factor of 10^15 or
more...thus dilating the last nanosecond of our life out into 5, 10
or 15 years! It is in THAT world, that we finally obtain "full
growth" and hence "Eternal Life".
This then, explains St. Paul's famous statment:

"We shall not all sleep, but we shall
all be changed.
In a moment, in the twinkling of an
eye, at the last trump.... the dead
shall be raised incorruptable, and
we shall be changed."

(I Cor 15:51)




What FRANK TIPLER has accomplished then, is to show us that the
HUMAN BRAIN is actually this "gigantic computer" he is talking
about, and that YES it does "emulate our body" and does
"resurrect" us to Eternal Life.

How has Tipler done this.... fact is Tipler has "independently
rediscovered" the classic Christian theory of Life After Death
wihtout even KNOWING it existed.. out of sheer religious
ignorance. Tipler is an "independent confirmation", and the most
modern scientific version, of what Christianity has already
postulated as a conjecture!
Combined with Hammond's result, that subjective reality is a
"curved version" of objective reality (a proven fact.. to 2 decimal
points), Tipler's "computer emulation" hypothesis becomes a credible
scientific reality.. tipler is the first indicaion that the
christian speculation ot "Life After Death" is actually a credible
scientific hypothesis!


Well... you can imagine how much I would like to talk to
Frank Tipler... but I'm sure he's too busy being a bigshot..
or too busy calculating the "Omega Point" to waste time
talking to a nobody M.S. physicist and experimenta psychologist
like me.

I tried eamiling him once or twice years ago.. but he never
answered... maybe you could send him an email and suggest he
talk to GEORGE HAMMOND.... his email address is:


..............................
Frank J.Tipler
Professor
Department of Mathematics
Tulane University

e-mail address:
tipler@[NOSPAM]math.tulane.edu

Delete "[NOSPAM]" to restore address
.............................


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[George E. Hammond]

HAMMOND-TIPLER, PHYSICISTS FROM HELL...?

Some would expect me to try and flatter Frank Tipler since he
is a maverick physicist and so am I... both of us because of our
interest in God and Religion.

But no, Frank Tipler wouldn't raise a finger to help me, nor
would any other establishment physicist. They're all too jealous
and egocentric. So I won't waste my breath.

Tipler is author of the bestselling _Physics of Immortality_
(1994) a book considered by most physicists to be an embarrasment
to Science since it claims to scientifically prove there is
"Life After Death".

Tipler is a tenured professor of Astronomy at Tulane Univ. and
a well known collegue of Prof. John D. Barrow FRS also an
internationally recognized Astrophysicist. Up until about 1992
Tipler was a frequent coauthor with Barrow of exotic high level
Relativity and Astrophysical papers published in Nature, Physical
Review etc. Both men are are international bigshots, extremely
competent, and quite famous in conventional Physics.

However, around 1980 Barrow became interested in something called
the "anthropic Principle" and apparently got Tipler interested.
This resulted in their book _The Anthropic Cosmological Principle_
in 1986. Apparently, the success of this book went to Tipler's head
and got him off on the road to Religion resulting in the _Physics of
Immortality_ in 1994. I notice Tipler has not published any papers
with Barrow since then... probably Barrow was as shocked as everyone
else at Tipler's embarrasing obsession with religion.



At any rate, my message is simply this:


1)
Tipler's book is the most important (speculative)
scientific work about the Physics of God ever printed,
and Frank Tipler is probably (2nd only to myself) now
the most important scientist in the Science-Religion
field today.

2)
All this, DESPITE the fact that Frank Tipler's theory
of God is ridiculously incorrect due to a fundamental
faux pas of the first magnitude, perhaps the biggest
scientific gaffe since Einstein invented the Cosmological
Constant which Einstein later called "the biggest blunder
of my life".


3)
This Tipler blunder, certainly the "biggest blunder of
Frank Tipler's life" would be extremly funny if in fact
Tipler's book wasn't so significant in a different light
which will be mentioned later, and which is the justification
for my assessment given in 1) above.

4)
It turns out that Tipler in his amateur religious enthusiasm
simply went off half cocked trying to explain "Eternal Life"
and naievely presumed (like most lay people) that "Eternal Life"
meant "living forever". Fact is, as any competent student of
Religion knows "Eternal Life" does NOT mean "living forever"..
it means "living at full genotypic speed". Fact is, because of
the universal struggle for existence no one is fully grown
(such a person would be God in the flesh). Hence, none of us
is operating at full design (genotypic) speed or full (genotypic)
intelligence. the average human phenotype is only about 80%
full grown.. i.e.Phenotype=.8 Genotype. This (Secular Trend)
growth deficit is what causes the classical God of religion,
and is a commonly observed psychogical (perceptual) effect which
has been the central subject of Religion for thousands of years.
However, since this perceptual effect is so difficult to explain
to the average lay person (or even to a lay physicist like Tipler)
it is euphemistically referred to as "Eternal Life". However,
the notion of a person living for millions or billions of years
is only a HEURISTIC LAY EUPHEMISM.. which ironically, Frank Tipler
has taken literally, and in fact has apparently proven that
such a thing is even theoretically possible!
This of course would be a fascinating irony if it weren't for
the fact that in the course of Tipler's extrodinary efforts to
prove that "infinite life" (not to be confused with Eternal
Life) is actually possible... Tipler has in fact divulged and
even discovered enough physics to actually shed some important
light on the real credibility of Eternal Life, and in fact the
question of Life After Death itself!




OK... having explained how Tipler has managed to make a scientific
blunder on the order of Einstein's Cosmological Constant... let me
proceed to point out the true value of Tipler's work.


First, in his obsession to prove that it might be possible
to construct a life form that could "live forever", Tipler has
apparently brought the full force of mondern physics to bear
on the question of whether or not a computer "emulation" of a
person could be "alive". His conclusion is, based on the
indistiguishability of identical particles, that YES, a
perfect emulation could be "alive".
Now bear in mind, Tipler is considered a 1st rank physicist,
and is well known to people like Penrose, Hawking, Weinberg
and others, all of whom he has jointly published papers with
and/or had innumerable private discussions. He is a full professor
of Mathematical Physics at Tulane University. He was at one time
John A. Wheeler's postdoctoral assistant! His book lists among
others having commented on his book and had discussions with him
about it before publication:

Jacob Bekenstein
David Deutsch
Andrei Linde
John Polkinghorne
Walter Thirring
John A. wheeler

All of this tells us that the "computer emulation" hypothesis
(given a big enough computer) IS a viable no nonsense scientific
thesis.



OK, now I will omit a discussion of Tipler's "blunder" in
assuming that this computer would have to be built sometime
in the future and be of Galactic size... (his Omega Point theory)..
and get right to the RELEVANT implication for Life After Death
as it is historically known and conceived.


HISTORICALLY, the Christian Religion believes that Man will
"rise after death" in a "spiritual body" (St. Paul, I Cor:15).

Traditionally, it has been commonly believed that if this is true,
that what we are most likely talking about is some kind of post
mortem "dream" state.

Of course the traditional objection to that theory is that "dead
brains can't dream", so how could we dream of life after we are dead?

BUT, Hammond has pointed out that God has now been discovered to be
a relativistic Curvature of subjective spacetime, meaning that
God is a "Relativistic" phenomena.

That immediately raises the obvious speculation that life after death
is actually life before death, but is only "time dilated" so that
it APPEARS to take place after death when it actually doesn't!

According to Hammonds theory:

Hammond G.E.(2003) A Semiclassical Theory of God
Noetic Journal, Vol 4(3) July 2003, pp 231-244(Noetic Press)
Online copy at:
http://geocities.com/scientific_proof_of_god/Hammond5s1.html

The ungrown part of the brain (Freud's unconscious mind so called)
is constantly computing the "missing" part of our life (Heaven)
and this is stored at the atomic/particle physics level in the
brain. When we die, as a natural consequence of the death process,
this stored "log" of our missing life simply reads out or is read
by our consciousnes, which has now descended to this lower level
in accordance with the natural death process. Of course this
reading does not take place at neuronal speeds, it takes place a
quantum particle physics speeds... nanoseconds... but THEN..it is
liesurly "READ" by this particle physics consciousness in a "time
dilated coordinate system"... with a dilation factor of 10^15 or
more...thus dilating the last nanosecond of our life out into 5, 10
or 15 years! It is in THAT world, that we finally obtain "full
growth" and hence "Eternal Life".
This then, explains St. Paul's famous statment:

"We shall not all sleep, but we shall
all be changed.
In a moment, in the twinkling of an
eye, at the last trump.... the dead
shall be raised incorruptable, and
we shall be changed."

(I Cor 15:51)




What FRANK TIPLER has accomplished then, is to show us that the
HUMAN BRAIN is actually this "gigantic computer" he is talking
about, and that YES it does "emulate our body" and does
"resurrect" us to Eternal Life.

How has Tipler done this.... fact is Tipler has "independently
rediscovered" the classic Christian theory of Life After Death
wihtout even KNOWING it existed.. out of sheer religious
ignorance. Tipler is an "independent confirmation", and the most
modern scientific version, of what Christianity has already
postulated as a conjecture!
Combined with Hammond's result, that subjective reality is a
"curved version" of objective reality (a proven fact.. to 2 decimal
points), Tipler's "computer emulation" hypothesis becomes a credible
scientific reality.. tipler is the first indicaion that the
christian speculation ot "Life After Death" is actually a credible
scientific hypothesis!


Well... you can imagine how much I would like to talk to
Frank Tipler... but I'm sure he's too busy being a bigshot..
or too busy calculating the "Omega Point" to waste time
talking to a nobody M.S. physicist and experimenta psychologist
like me.

I tried eamiling him once or twice years ago.. but he never
answered... maybe you could send him an email and suggest he
talk to GEORGE HAMMOND.... his email address is:


..............................
Frank J.Tipler
Professor
Department of Mathematics
Tulane University

e-mail address:
tipler@[NOSPAM]math.tulane.edu

Delete "[NOSPAM]" to restore address
.............................


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Send a blank email to ***@hotmail.com
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[S***@gmx.net]

I give you now 5 minutes during the ads Hammbone. What a waste of time
you'd be otherwise.

Post by George Hammond
HAMMOND-TIPLER, PHYSICISTS FROM HELL...?
Some would expect me to try and flatter Frank Tipler since he
is a maverick physicist and so am I... both of us because of our
interest in God and Religion.
But no, Frank Tipler wouldn't raise a finger to help me, nor
would any other establishment physicist.

Right.

Post by George Hammond
They're all too jealous
and egocentric.

Wrong.

Post by George Hammond
So I won't waste my breath.

But then you do.

Post by George Hammond
All of this tells us that the "computer emulation" hypothesis
(given a big enough computer) IS a viable no nonsense scientific
thesis.

And if you had a bigger head, there would be even more water in it. I
don't have to be a psychologist to realize that you suffer of
Schizolphrenia.
Hammbone, you have absolutely no idea what you talk about. That's why
nobody wants to discuss with you. You should stick to the weirdness
that comes from the lips of your self proclaimed messiah Moon. There is
always the need for more computer power but in this field it's first of
all what has to be solved by science / software architecture and not
power.

Being active in the field of what you talk about (AI), I tell you that
almost all well known scientists have given up such a task. There was a
big change to direction in this area in the 90s, away from the
human-like machine / intelligence. This is something even you could be
able to understand:
"Clever" computer systems are able to solve unknown problems with less
"knowledge" than "unclever" systems.
The more abstract things become, the less you're able to predict
anything. Thus a computer is less able to emulate a human than a human
is.

Do you follow, Hammbone? If you want to be "the same" like somebody
else, you have to know everything about him. But then you have to also
-use- everything you know about him, what means in turn you're less
able to abstract.
So the "dillema" is that ability to abstract means cleverness and
different reults. Still following?
In even simpler terms: If you try to "emulate" a person you're today
nothing but a copy of yesterdays newspaper tomorrow. (I meant to say
you have to learn inside out today what happened yesterday in order to
be able to behave tomorrow like the person did yesterday... ;-) )

Post by George Hammond
OK, now I will omit a discussion of Tipler's "blunder" in
assuming that this computer would have to be built sometime
in the future and be of Galactic size... (his Omega Point theory)..
and get right to the RELEVANT implication for Life After Death
as it is historically known and conceived.

I will suggest him to search somebody who is able to cure you from your
ill state of mind. But I doubt such a genius is out there.
At least not in this "dimension and spacetime".

[S***@gmx.net]

Thus a computer is less able to emulate a human than a human is.

Should read:

Thus a computer is even less able to emulate a human than a human is.

[j***@yahoo.com]

Post by S***@gmx.net

Thus a computer is less able to emulate a human than a human is.

Thus a computer is even less able to emulate a human than a human is.

Well kind of by definition a human does a perfect job emulating a
human. Also if Hammond were to throw in the Penrose-Hameroff stuff he
has mentioned previously then this computer is a quantum computer and
all the AI stuff is not applicable. There is a Zizzi decoherence limit
to how big a quantum computer can be (at least on this side of the
vacuum) but obviously we are quite far from that limit with man-made
quantum computers. The human mind may be within an order of magnitude
from being at the Zizzi decoherence limit. John

[George E. Hammond]

Post by j***@yahoo.com

Post by S***@gmx.net

Thus a computer is less able to emulate a human than a human is.

Thus a computer is even less able to emulate a human than a human is.

Well kind of by definition a human does a perfect job emulating a
human. Also if Hammond were to throw in the Penrose-Hameroff stuff he
has mentioned previously then this computer is a quantum computer and
all the AI stuff is not applicable. There is a Zizzi decoherence limit
to how big a quantum computer can be (at least on this side of the
vacuum) but obviously we are quite far from that limit with man-made
quantum computers. The human mind may be within an order of magnitude
from being at the Zizzi decoherence limit. John

[Hammond]
The only real importance of Frank Tipler is that he is a first rank
Mathematical Physicist... and a real insider... he was Wheeler's
postdoc assistant at one time, a position held by many other
notables including Feynman and Bekenstein. Tipler is a bigshot,
known to Wigner, Hawking, Penrose, Weinberg, Wheeler and all
the other top echelon insiders... and is a full professor of
Mathmatical Physics at Tulane... he publishes regularly in Nature,
Physical Review etc. ... papers on Global General relativity,
Astrophysics, etc.

The point is... *he* believes there is a scientific proof of God
and Life After death.... and he's straight as a ruler!
That's the importance of Frank Tipler!

Now... beyond that..... *he* thinks it's possible "in principle"
for Life After Death to be a "computer emulation".

Unbeknownst to Tipler.... that is EXACTLY what the Christian
Church has believed Life After Death is, for 2,000 years.... only
the Human Brain is the "computer".

We now know that there is computation at the atomic level in the
microtubule structure of the neuron (Hameroff/Penrose)... and
Penrose says that "Quantum Gravity" is involved in these
computations.... this extends the computing capacity of the brain
by factors of billions and billions... and coupled with Hammond's
"time dilation" phenomenon... it is CLEARLY feasible that Life
After Death is a higly dilated "twins paradox" phenomea whereby
Life After Death is actually Life Before Death that is "time dilated"
so that it only APPEARS to occur after death!

I think Tipler has added SUBSTANTIALLY to the "classical"
(Religious) theory of Life After Death.... even though his
"Omega Point" theory is a wild goose chase.

Therefore, I would really like to talk to Frank Tipler!
--
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[George E. Hammond]

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:24:46 GMT, George E. Hammond
<***@nospam.net> wrote:

[Hammond]
I mean... look at it this way..

The classical religious (Christian) idea of Life After Death came
about from Man's observation of nocturnal dreams. Someone
back in the Stone Age probably said.... hey, if people dream
when they're asleep.. maybe people dream when they're dead..
so maybe there is "life after death".... and that's the way the
idea got started.

Point is an ordinary nocturnal dream isn't very "real"... its about
as real as watching a movie or t.v. say. However, suppose a
dream were made 10, 100, or 1000 times more realistic.. or even
10,000 times more realistic? You know yourself there are
nightmares where people wake up screaming, sweating and
bolt upright in bed.... if dreams were 1000 times more real than
they are.... they'd be just about the real thing practically.

Point is.... we now know there is 10^10 more computing power
in the brain than simply the neuronal network.... who's to say that
some "quantum memory" program or mechanism isn't in place in the
brain that actually spins out a "life after death" movie which is then
seen in a time dilated state.... and there ACTUALLY IS such a
thing as "Life After Death".... it's entirely plausible scientifically
at the present state of knowlege!

And why would such a thing exist you ask? Because it's a NATURAL
part of the growth and death mechanism.... THAT'S WHY!

And on the question of why would we want such a thing to exist...
here's another idea. Most people would say... well, it would be nice
to end up in Paradise at last.... sure I agree. But frankly, I could
forego Paradise.... what I'm more interested in is the existence
of a REAL HELL!

Think about it... think of all those bastards getting away with
murder, genocide, slavery, oppression, child abuse... you name it.

If we could ever PROVE that a real "Hell after Death" existed... an
exquisite REAL PUNISHMENT awaiting any sinner.... complete with
violence, suffering, torture and unlimited pain and punishment...
I say... THERE is a real deterrent to wrongdoing!

That ought to improve the world a little!


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[TMG]

Sorry for the Top Post, but it's appropriate.

Umm,....George, who are you talking to here?

Let's set aside the stupid content of your typing - but you're having
this stupid argument with yourself.

You've been told this before: Those VOICES aren't really in the room
with you. You don't need to respond to them. Especially when they shout
"KILL THEM,...KILL THEM ALL!!!"

Post by George E. Hammond
On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:24:46 GMT, George E. Hammond
[Hammond]
I mean... look at it this way..
The classical religious (Christian) idea of Life After Death came
about from Man's observation of nocturnal dreams. Someone
back in the Stone Age probably said.... hey, if people dream
when they're asleep.. maybe people dream when they're dead..
so maybe there is "life after death".... and that's the way the
idea got started.
Point is an ordinary nocturnal dream isn't very "real"... its about
as real as watching a movie or t.v. say. However, suppose a
dream were made 10, 100, or 1000 times more realistic.. or even
10,000 times more realistic? You know yourself there are
nightmares where people wake up screaming, sweating and
bolt upright in bed.... if dreams were 1000 times more real than
they are.... they'd be just about the real thing practically.
Point is.... we now know there is 10^10 more computing power
in the brain than simply the neuronal network.... who's to say that
some "quantum memory" program or mechanism isn't in place in the
brain that actually spins out a "life after death" movie which is then
seen in a time dilated state.... and there ACTUALLY IS such a
thing as "Life After Death".... it's entirely plausible scientifically
at the present state of knowlege!
And why would such a thing exist you ask? Because it's a NATURAL
part of the growth and death mechanism.... THAT'S WHY!
And on the question of why would we want such a thing to exist...
here's another idea. Most people would say... well, it would be nice
to end up in Paradise at last.... sure I agree. But frankly, I could
forego Paradise.... what I'm more interested in is the existence
of a REAL HELL!
Think about it... think of all those bastards getting away with
murder, genocide, slavery, oppression, child abuse... you name it.
If we could ever PROVE that a real "Hell after Death" existed... an
exquisite REAL PUNISHMENT awaiting any sinner.... complete with
violence, suffering, torture and unlimited pain and punishment...
I say... THERE is a real deterrent to wrongdoing!
That ought to improve the world a little!
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[TMG]

The point is... *he* believes there is a scientific proof of God...
Now... beyond that..... *he* thinks it's possible "in principle"...

Now, what do you make from the fact that he has no interest in "talking"
to you?

Professional jealousy?

You claim that you've sent email, and it's ignored. You mew to the
assembled readers that they should petition this poor putz and MAKE him
talk to you. You then post his email so that he can be directly stalked.
For G_uv's sake, get a clue.

How many fawning appeals have you made over the last 3 or so years?
Count them up - people and institutions.

Within your own little world, how do you rationalize the return rate?

You are universally dismissed as a glue sniffing crank. You've cast the
SPOG out to a huge audience - and you end up universally reviled. How on
earth is that possible, unless you really are a loon?

Think - Learn - Adapt.

[S***@gmx.net]

Post by j***@yahoo.com

Post by S***@gmx.net

Thus a computer is less able to emulate a human than a human is.

Thus a computer is even less able to emulate a human than a human is.

Well kind of by definition a human does a perfect job emulating a
human.

Well, obviously correct. But I had figuratively a 14 year old teenie in
mind who tries to "emulate" Britnay Spears and a computer which tries
to emulate this emulation ;-). Such a system would be a challenge for a
few years. But can't be challenged by Hammonds weirdness to emulate the
dead ones I'd say... :)

Post by j***@yahoo.com
Also if Hammond were to throw in the Penrose-Hameroff stuff he
has mentioned previously then this computer is a quantum computer and
all the AI stuff is not applicable. There is a Zizzi decoherence limit
to how big a quantum computer can be (at least on this side of the
vacuum) but obviously we are quite far from that limit with man-made
quantum computers. The human mind may be within an order of magnitude
from being at the Zizzi decoherence limit. John
From my limited knowledge of quantum phsycics I'd think it's less

possible to emulate anything based on quantum physics. Is this correct?
(English is my second language, I think emulating isn't the right term
here. I mean to adopt the "behaviour" of a quantum system, including
all it's "data". So that one system can predict what another will do. I
thought it wouldn't be possible because data had to be read, but it
would be read it would change the system.)

[j***@yahoo.com]

Post by S***@gmx.net

Post by j***@yahoo.com
From my limited knowledge of quantum phsycics I'd think it's less

possible to emulate anything based on quantum physics. Is this correct?
(English is my second language, I think emulating isn't the right term
here. I mean to adopt the "behaviour" of a quantum system, including
all it's "data". So that one system can predict what another will do. I
thought it wouldn't be possible because data had to be read, but it
would be read it would change the system.)

There are actual quantum computers using a small number of particles in
a superposition. The data is not read until the end and there are
probabilities so you have to run the computer several times. The human
mind is theorized to run its quantum computer every 25 milliseconds.
John

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_quantum_computing

[S***@gmx.net]

Post by j***@yahoo.com

Post by S***@gmx.net

Post by j***@yahoo.com
From my limited knowledge of quantum phsycics I'd think it's less

possible to emulate anything based on quantum physics. Is this correct?
(English is my second language, I think emulating isn't the right term
here. I mean to adopt the "behaviour" of a quantum system, including
all it's "data". So that one system can predict what another will do. I
thought it wouldn't be possible because data had to be read, but it
would be read it would change the system.)

There are actual quantum computers using a small number of particles in
a superposition. The data is not read until the end and there are
probabilities so you have to run the computer several times. The human
mind is theorized to run its quantum computer every 25 milliseconds.
John

Thanks, that's interesting. But what I meant was that from my
understanding other than with normal PCs the state and "data" of one
quantum computer cannot be copied to a second quantum computer.
So that the second system 1) would be a exact copy of the original one
and 2) would show the same behaviour as the original system, so that
the second system could exactly predict the 'behaviour' or behave
itself like the original system. From my understanding I thought you
can read (thus copy) the end result, but if we were to copy the whole
system we would change it or maybe destroy it (?), because it's being
read.
So do you think it's correct that there can't be a exact 'copy' of a
quantum computer (emulating the exact same data, state and behaviour)?
Or is this possible?

Post by j***@yahoo.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_quantum_computing

[j***@yahoo.com]

Post by S***@gmx.net
Thanks, that's interesting. But what I meant was that from my
understanding other than with normal PCs the state and "data" of one
quantum computer cannot be copied to a second quantum computer.
So that the second system 1) would be a exact copy of the original one
and 2) would show the same behaviour as the original system, so that
the second system could exactly predict the 'behaviour' or behave
itself like the original system. From my understanding I thought you
can read (thus copy) the end result, but if we were to copy the whole
system we would change it or maybe destroy it (?), because it's being
read.
So do you think it's correct that there can't be a exact 'copy' of a
quantum computer (emulating the exact same data, state and behaviour)?
Or is this possible?

The big quantum computer could be an animal or human-like entity in
theory but it would not be an exact copy of anybody, it would be its
own entity. John

[Josef Oswald]

***@gmx.net
in <***@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
on 2005-08-01 stumbled into the light and exclaimed:

<snip>

Post by S***@gmx.net
Hammbone, you have absolutely no idea what you talk about. That's why
nobody wants to discuss with you. You should stick to the weirdness
that comes from the lips of your self proclaimed messiah Moon.

"Stefan" what makes you think this writer has anything to do with the
UM? I haven't read many of his posts, but IIRC he hasn't *promoted*
Rev.Moon AFAIK.....

<snip>

Josef Oswald
--
so the question remains:
Will our critics here hear from the *final* Judge,
well done
or
*depart* from me you *evil-doer*
???
-

Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer.
-- Henry Lawson

[Eric]

Post by Josef Oswald
<snip>

Post by S***@gmx.net
Hammbone, you have absolutely no idea what you talk about. That's why
nobody wants to discuss with you. You should stick to the weirdness
that comes from the lips of your self proclaimed messiah Moon.

"Stefan" what makes you think this writer has anything to do with the
UM? I haven't read many of his posts, but IIRC he hasn't *promoted*
Rev.Moon AFAIK.....
<snip>
Josef Oswald

Stefan, like Dory and Bruce, gets the players all mixed up. He thinks
George Hammond is Hamm.

[S***@gmx.net]

Post by Eric

Post by Josef Oswald
<snip>

Post by S***@gmx.net
Hammbone, you have absolutely no idea what you talk about. That's why
nobody wants to discuss with you. You should stick to the weirdness
that comes from the lips of your self proclaimed messiah Moon.

"Stefan" what makes you think this writer has anything to do with the
UM? I haven't read many of his posts, but IIRC he hasn't *promoted*
Rev.Moon AFAIK.....
<snip>
Josef Oswald

Stefan, like Dory and Bruce, gets the players all mixed up. He thinks
George Hammond is Hamm.

It's hard to always discern between all the weirdos ;)

When I searched (now) for "Hammond" in ARU in google groups, the first
post that came up was a post from Steve titled "Hi Hammond" that was
meant for (Moonie) Hammond, this other George E. Hammond then gave a
response, the "real" (Moonie) Hammond then felt annoyed that somebody
was posting for what was meant for him. How should I discern them if
even you can't discern between your own folks?

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.religion.unification/browse_frm/thread/afcf885a3f6de828/28e2a49e83abc141?q=hammond&rnum=1&hl=en#28e2a49e83abc141

Indeed, I always thought he's the same as the other Hammond beause both
seem to be interested into a scientific proof of god.
I remember a discussion with me and (Moonie) Hammond when he was
talking with schizophrenia like weirdness about a "trickenation of
space and time". I haven't re-read the whole article here of this
George E. Hammond but I'm sure he was talking about something alike.
I'm sorry if I was wrong about who he is, but considering that this
George E. Hammond responded to his own posts in this thread and talks
about trickenations of space and time like the other Hammond does, I
wonder if he himself knows who he is.

[Eric]

Thanks for the clarification.

Post by S***@gmx.net

Post by Eric

Post by Josef Oswald
<snip>

Post by S***@gmx.net
Hammbone, you have absolutely no idea what you talk about. That's why
nobody wants to discuss with you. You should stick to the weirdness
that comes from the lips of your self proclaimed messiah Moon.

"Stefan" what makes you think this writer has anything to do with the
UM? I haven't read many of his posts, but IIRC he hasn't *promoted*
Rev.Moon AFAIK.....
<snip>
Josef Oswald

Stefan, like Dory and Bruce, gets the players all mixed up. He thinks
George Hammond is Hamm.

It's hard to always discern between all the weirdos ;)
When I searched (now) for "Hammond" in ARU in google groups, the first
post that came up was a post from Steve titled "Hi Hammond" that was
meant for (Moonie) Hammond, this other George E. Hammond then gave a
response, the "real" (Moonie) Hammond then felt annoyed that somebody
was posting for what was meant for him. How should I discern them if
even you can't discern between your own folks?
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.religion.unification/browse_frm/thread
/afcf885a3f6de828/28e2a49e83abc141?q=hammond&rnum=1&hl=en#28e2a49e83abc141
Indeed, I always thought he's the same as the other Hammond beause both
seem to be interested into a scientific proof of god.
I remember a discussion with me and (Moonie) Hammond when he was
talking with schizophrenia like weirdness about a "trickenation of
space and time". I haven't re-read the whole article here of this
George E. Hammond but I'm sure he was talking about something alike.
I'm sorry if I was wrong about who he is, but considering that this
George E. Hammond responded to his own posts in this thread and talks
about trickenations of space and time like the other Hammond does, I
wonder if he himself knows who he is.

[Josef Oswald]

Post by S***@gmx.net

Post by Eric

Post by Josef Oswald
<snip>

Post by S***@gmx.net
Hammbone, you have absolutely no idea what you talk about. That's why
nobody wants to discuss with you. You should stick to the weirdness
that comes from the lips of your self proclaimed messiah Moon.

"Stefan" what makes you think this writer has anything to do with the
UM? I haven't read many of his posts, but IIRC he hasn't *promoted*
Rev.Moon AFAIK.....
<snip>
Josef Oswald

Stefan, like Dory and Bruce, gets the players all mixed up. He thinks
George Hammond is Hamm.

It's hard to always discern between all the weirdos ;)
When I searched (now) for "Hammond" in ARU in google groups, the first
post that came up was a post from Steve titled "Hi Hammond" that was meant
for (Moonie) Hammond, this other George E. Hammond then gave a response,
the "real" (Moonie) Hammond then felt annoyed that somebody was posting
for what was meant for him. How should I discern them if even you can't
discern between your own folks?
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.religion.unification/browse_frm/thread/afcf885a3f6de828/28e2a49e83abc141?q=hammond&rnum=1&hl=en#28e2a49e83abc141

BTW "Smarty" oops I mean, "Stefan" try http://tinyurl.com/ for long links,


Josef Oswald

[ZenIsWhen]

Post by George Hammond
HAMMOND-TIPLER, PHYSICISTS FROM HELL...?
Some would expect me to try and flatter Frank Tipler since he
is a maverick physicist and so am I... both of us because of our
interest in God and Religion.

You're no maverick physicist - you're just a psychotic lunatic!

Post by George Hammond
But no, Frank Tipler wouldn't raise a finger to help me, nor
would any other establishment physicist. They're all too jealous
and egocentric. So I won't waste my breath.

They're all interested in REAL physics - not insane babbling from a moronic
fool!

Post by George Hammond
Tipler is author of the bestselling _Physics of Immortality_
(1994) a book considered by most physicists to be an embarrasment
to Science since it claims to scientifically prove there is
"Life After Death".

It is probably as insane as your crap!

Post by George Hammond
Tipler is a tenured professor of Astronomy at Tulane Univ. and
a well known collegue of Prof. John D. Barrow FRS also an
internationally recognized Astrophysicist. Up until about 1992
Tipler was a frequent coauthor with Barrow of exotic high level
Relativity and Astrophysical papers published in Nature, Physical
Review etc. Both men are are international bigshots, extremely
competent, and quite famous in conventional Physics.

A tenured professor of astronomy is a well known physicist?
Sounds abouy the same as your claim of being a physicist - and then babbling
about religon and psycholiogy!

Post by George Hammond
However, around 1980 Barrow became interested in something called
the "anthropic Principle" and apparently got Tipler interested.
This resulted in their book _The Anthropic Cosmological Principle_
in 1986. Apparently, the success of this book went to Tipler's head
and got him off on the road to Religion resulting in the _Physics of
Immortality_ in 1994. I notice Tipler has not published any papers
with Barrow since then... probably Barrow was as shocked as everyone
else at Tipler's embarrasing obsession with religion.

Just as you are an embarassment to anyone with a working brain?

Post by George Hammond
1)
Tipler's book is the most important (speculative)
scientific work about the Physics of God ever printed,
and Frank Tipler is probably (2nd only to myself) now
the most important scientist in the Science-Religion
field today.

Two piles of bull shit aren't any better than one large pile of bull shit!

Post by George Hammond
2)
All this, DESPITE the fact that Frank Tipler's theory
of God is ridiculously incorrect due to a fundamental
faux pas of the first magnitude, perhaps the biggest
scientific gaffe since Einstein invented the Cosmological
Constant which Einstein later called "the biggest blunder
of my life".

Bwahahhaaaaaa........... as though YOUR crap has any scientific, or even
reality based, support!


(snip remaining Hammondcrap)

BTW ............. why are you ignoring the follow up to your false claims
about being posted (and others not allowed to be posted) in
sci.physics.research?

BTW .... why are you ignoring the fact that you claimed that you would NOT
bother with these news groups since you've "created" one of your own????

BTW ........ Why are you such an ignorant asshole?

[Midjis]

Post by George Hammond
But no, Frank Tipler wouldn't raise a finger to help me, nor
would any other establishment physicist. They're all too jealous
and egocentric. So I won't waste my breath.

No, George. They're just too busy doing actual science to concern
themselves with the ramblings of some nonentity on Usenet.

[bv_schornak]

Post by George Hammond
Some would expect me to try and flatter Frank Tipler since he
is a maverick physicist and so am I... both of us because of our
interest in God and Religion.

Hm - if he's a "physicist" like the incredible [Hammond]...

Post by George Hammond
But no, Frank Tipler wouldn't raise a finger to help me, nor
would any other establishment physicist. They're all too jealous
and egocentric.

...then he needs _your_ help badly...

Post by George Hammond
So I won't waste my breath.

...but, nevertheless, I see a lot of lines below...

<snipped ... about reputation>
<snipped ... about loss of reputation>

Post by George Hammond
1)
Tipler's book is the most important (speculative)
scientific work about the Physics of God ever printed,
and Frank Tipler is probably (2nd only to myself) now
the most important scientist in the Science-Religion
field today.

"2nd to yourself" means he will start posting meta-physics here like
you do? Will he start each paragraph in his replies with [Tippler]?

Post by George Hammond
4)
It turns out that Tipler in his amateur religious enthusiasm
simply went off half cocked trying to explain "Eternal Life"
and naievely presumed (like most lay people) that "Eternal Life"
meant "living forever". Fact is, as any competent student of
Religion knows "Eternal Life" does NOT mean "living forever"..
it means "living at full genotypic speed".

I doubt any student knows about "living at full genotypic speed". It
is as scientific as "painting at full blue pressure".

SPoG-ology: <http://schornak.de/aspog/peer-4pg/index.htm>

Post by George Hammond
However, since this perceptual effect is so difficult to explain
to the average lay person (or even to a lay physicist like Tipler)
it is euphemistically referred to as "Eternal Life".

Where did Tippler _perceive_ "Eternal Life"? Evidence?

Post by George Hammond
However,
the notion of a person living for millions or billions of years
is only a HEURISTIC LAY EUPHEMISM.. which ironically, Frank Tipler
has taken literally, and in fact has apparently proven that
such a thing is even theoretically possible!

Everything is theoretically possible. If it is reasonable is another
question.

Post by George Hammond
This of course would be a fascinating irony if it weren't for
the fact that in the course of Tipler's extrodinary efforts to
prove that "infinite life" (not to be confused with Eternal
Life) is actually possible... Tipler has in fact divulged and
even discovered enough physics to actually shed some important
light on the real credibility of Eternal Life, and in fact the
question of Life After Death itself!

Isn't "Life after Death" a contradiction of our definitions of alive
and dead? This isn't physics, it's meta-physical voodoo.

Post by George Hammond
First, in his obsession to prove that it might be possible
to construct a life form that could "live forever", Tipler has
apparently brought the full force of mondern physics to bear
on the question of whether or not a computer "emulation" of a
person could be "alive". His conclusion is, based on the
indistiguishability of identical particles, that YES, a
perfect emulation could be "alive".

Is a machine able to reproduce itself? Of course, we can invent such
a machine with today's knowledge and technologies. But - are we able
to create a machine with a "personality" like a human? Of course, we
cannot do that. It requires knowledge about _everything_ regarding a
human brain. We don't have this knowledge (yet), so it is impossible
to "emulate" a person. We can (and have tried to) create an approxi-
mation, but it isn't the real thing.

<snipped ... about reputation>

Post by George Hammond
All of this tells us that the "computer emulation" hypothesis
(given a big enough computer) IS a viable no nonsense scientific
thesis.

Size does not matter (compare a brain against a computer cluster) in
this case, it is a question of available data. And that's where your
(and Tippler's) phantasies are leaving reality.

Post by George Hammond
HISTORICALLY, the Christian Religion believes that Man will
"rise after death" in a "spiritual body" (St. Paul, I Cor:15).

Keep the "spiritual body" in mind!

Post by George Hammond
Traditionally, it has been commonly believed that if this is true,
that what we are most likely talking about is some kind of post
mortem "dream" state.

No. Spirit in religious belief is an entity on its own which ensouls
our body. It's the force that puts life into dead matter, so to say.

Post by George Hammond
Of course the traditional objection to that theory is that "dead
brains can't dream", so how could we dream of life after we are dead?

We can't. Dreams are seen as "the soul leaving the body" in mystical
teachings. If you carry on with meta-physics, you should learn about
the basic ideas of this field.

Post by George Hammond
BUT, Hammond has pointed out that God has now been discovered to be
a relativistic Curvature of subjective spacetime, meaning that
God is a "Relativistic" phenomena.

Yes. You've proven that G_uv God cannot live in Heaven because there
is no Heaven for BGD=0 entities. Some more of your nice "proofs" are
discussed in Anti-SPoG <http://schornak.de/aspog/index.htm>.

Post by George Hammond
That immediately raises the obvious speculation that life after death
is actually life before death, but is only "time dilated" so that
it APPEARS to take place after death when it actually doesn't!

Oh - Sir Zweistein talking?

Do you have an explanation how we can "time dilate" future events to
happen in the past? AFAIK, time travels are impossible in Einstein's
Universe.

Post by George Hammond
The ungrown part of the brain (Freud's unconscious mind so called)

Freud's "unconscious mind" is a part of our brain, it is neither un-
grown nor missing. Maybe except [Hammond]'s brain, some of the usual
parts seem to be missing there (especially the modules for logic and
reason)...

Post by George Hammond
is constantly computing the "missing" part of our life (Heaven)
and this is stored at the atomic/particle physics level in the
brain. When we die, as a natural consequence of the death process,
this stored "log" of our missing life simply reads out or is read
by our consciousnes, which has now descended to this lower level
in accordance with the natural death process. Of course this
reading does not take place at neuronal speeds, it takes place a
quantum particle physics speeds... nanoseconds... but THEN..it is
liesurly "READ" by this particle physics consciousness in a "time
dilated coordinate system"... with a dilation factor of 10^15 or
more...thus dilating the last nanosecond of our life out into 5, 10
or 15 years! It is in THAT world, that we finally obtain "full
growth" and hence "Eternal Life".

But then it is not "eternal". It's just 5, 10 or 15 additional years
spent in a relativistic, time dilated continuum inside our brain. Is
this something you really want to experience?

Post by George Hammond
What FRANK TIPLER has accomplished then, is to show us that the
HUMAN BRAIN is actually this "gigantic computer" he is talking
about, and that YES it does "emulate our body" and does
"resurrect" us to Eternal Life.

The brain rots like the rest of our body - one minute without oxygen
destroys most of our brain cells. Thereafter the brain does not work
any longer. You can watch the results in every movie where "Zombies"
are shown - brain dead creatures who are driven by the will of their
master. Again - is this what you want to be if you're dead?

Post by George Hammond
How has Tipler done this.... fact is Tipler has "independently
rediscovered" the classic Christian theory of Life After Death
wihtout even KNOWING it existed..

How do _you_ know _he_ didn't know?

Post by George Hammond
out of sheer religious ignorance.

Every person who believes in "life after death" is religious, or, at
least, a follower of meta-physics by definition. There is no physics
in believing assertions we neither can observe nor measure.

Post by George Hammond
Tipler is an "independent confirmation", and the most modern scientific
version, of what Christianity has already postulated as a conjecture!
Combined with Hammond's result, that subjective reality is a
"curved version" of objective reality (a proven fact.. to 2 decimal
points), Tipler's "computer emulation" hypothesis becomes a credible
scientific reality.. tipler is the first indicaion that the
christian speculation ot "Life After Death" is actually a credible
scientific hypothesis!

Pseudo scientific. Meta-physics isn't a science at all. Sciences are
about observation and measurement, pseudosciences replace these with
"belief" and "faith".

Post by George Hammond
Well... you can imagine how much I would like to talk to
Frank Tipler... but I'm sure he's too busy being a bigshot..
or too busy calculating the "Omega Point" to waste time
talking to a nobody M.S. physicist and experimenta psychologist
like me.

Or he's bored reading your stuff as anyone else is?

Post by George Hammond
I tried eamiling him once or twice years ago.. but he never
answered... maybe you could send him an email and suggest he

Oh, George... Maybe people will talk with him about you - but surely
no one will motivate him to "discuss" with you. Whatever he did - he
hasn't deserved that... ;)


Greetings from Augsburg

Bernhard Schornak

[Gary Eickmeier]

Post by George Hammond
"We shall not all sleep, but we shall
all be changed.
In a moment, in the twinkling of an
eye, at the last trump.... the dead
shall be raised incorruptable, and
we shall be changed."
(I Cor 15:51)

I think what Hammond is doing is reading his bible, then dreaming up
theories to support a passage, then using that passage to prove his
theory. Typical dimbulb behavior.

Gary Eickmeier

[ZenIsWhen]

Post by Gary Eickmeier

Post by George Hammond
"We shall not all sleep, but we shall
all be changed.
In a moment, in the twinkling of an
eye, at the last trump.... the dead
shall be raised incorruptable, and
we shall be changed."
(I Cor 15:51)

I think what Hammond is doing is reading his bible, then dreaming up
theories to support a passage, then using that passage to prove his
theory. Typical dimbulb behavior.
Gary Eickmeier

I wonder what "Paul's" CVs (as far as physics is concerned) are ...........

[Gary Eickmeier]

Post by ZenIsWhen

Post by Gary Eickmeier

Post by George Hammond
"We shall not all sleep, but we shall
all be changed.
In a moment, in the twinkling of an
eye, at the last trump.... the dead
shall be raised incorruptable, and
we shall be changed."
(I Cor 15:51)

I think what Hammond is doing is reading his bible, then dreaming up
theories to support a passage, then using that passage to prove his
theory. Typical dimbulb behavior.
Gary Eickmeier

I wonder what "Paul's" CVs (as far as physics is concerned) are ...........

He had an article in the Noetic Journal...

Gary Eickmeier

[T Wake]

Post by George Hammond
HAMMOND-TIPLER, PHYSICISTS FROM HELL...?
Some would expect me to try and flatter Frank Tipler since he
is a maverick physicist and so am I... both of us because of our
interest in God and Religion.
But no, Frank Tipler wouldn't raise a finger to help me, nor
would any other establishment physicist. They're all too jealous
and egocentric. So I won't waste my breath.

You are the most egocentric person I have ever come into contact with.