Discussion:
1. On the notion of simultaneity in special relativity
(too old to reply)
Richard Hachel
2024-08-28 11:30:01 UTC
Permalink
1. On the notion of simultaneity in special relativity

The notion of simultaneity being defined by the coincident existence of
all events occurring
at the same time, or even, being characterized by the set of all physical
phenomena occurring
at the same instant, one should be able, at least by considering all the
fixed components found
in a given inertial system, to speak of "absolute simultaneity",
"universal synchronization", or
"common calendar" - these terms then being capable of acquiring a real
physical meaning - if
one could, without it varying, transpose the simultaneity proper to a
particular observer to all
other inertial observers present in the same frame of reference.

It would suffice to find any signal, or any action, by which a body A
could
interact instantaneously with a body B, that is to say by means of
information propagating infinitely quickly, for this notion of "absolute
simultaneity" to be experimentally proven. We could then say that
the action induced by body A was instantly transmitted to body B, or that
the action produced by
body A was carried out at the same time as its detection by body B, and
that there exists, de facto, between A and B, a sort of reciprocal and
absolute simultaneity.

We could also imagine a round-trip signal carried out over the distance x
separating A and B, and carried out by means of infinitely rapid
information, in such a way that the instants Ta (departure noted by watch
A) and Ta' (return noted by watch A) are simultaneous. It would easily
come that if the two watches A and B are "correctly" tuned (for example by
using an electromagnetic signal from the medium M of AB,
or by slowly moving apart the two watches that we would have previously
synchronized at the same place)
then the instant Tb (instant noted by B for the reflection of the signal)
would be the same as the instants Ta and Ta',
since if Ta'-Ta = 0 by definition, then |Tb-Ta| + |Ta'-Tb| = 0, hence Ta
=Ta'=Tb, and, by practicing in this way
step by step, for a multitude of other points C, D, E, F, G, H, I and so
on, the notion of general coexistence
in perfect absolute simultaneity of all the fixed components of a given
inertial frame R
could be demonstrated.

However, this proof does not exist: we know that a body can act at a
distance on another body - for example in the
form of an electromagnetic wave, in the form of a mechanical shock
transmitted along a rigid rod, or
in the form of a gravitational interaction - but we have never found a
signal that is infinitely fast,
or an action at a distance that is instantaneous. It seems rather, in
fact, that there exists, in nature, a sort of
uncrossable limit speed that we will find for any Galilean frame of
reference considered - a limit
observable speed, the true keystone of modern science - and which will
extend to all particles and all
properties of physics.

We can then suppose, and state, in light of what we have just said, the
following fundamental principle:
"the notion of simultaneity is relative by any change of observer; even
fixed between them, different
observers placed in different places, build different systems of
simultaneity"; and, thus, generally, in a given system, two or more
simultaneous events for an observer A will no longer be so, and
reciprocally, for an observer B, even perfectly inertial.

From there, the physical impossibility of covering any landmark with fixed
clocks
"absolutely" synchronized with each other will inevitably appear, since
they will never be able to agree on the notion of simultaneity:
two benches placed in a public garden, two stations arranged on a national
railway network, will never be able to agree on what could be abstractly
called "the notion of universal present time", and, at best of a desired
"coherent" synchronization - for example, by using one of the two
adjustment methods
mentioned above - each of the two watches thus synchronized will always
consider that the other watch
is behind it by a value equal to T = x/c; a real, physical measurement,
absolutely indicative of itself, and
implying that the same calendar cannot be valid for the entire universe,
nor even simply for any given
geographical landmark.

R.H.
Paul.B.Andersen
2024-08-28 18:56:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Hachel
1. On the notion of simultaneity in special relativity
Precisely defined in:

https://paulba.no/paper/Electrodynamics.pdf
§ 1. Definition of Simultaneity
§ 2. On the Relativity of Lengths and Times

Richard Hachel has nothing sensible to add.
Post by Richard Hachel
<snip babble>
--
Paul

https://paulba.no/
Richard Hachel
2024-08-28 19:27:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul.B.Andersen
Post by Richard Hachel
1. On the notion of simultaneity in special relativity
https://paulba.no/paper/Electrodynamics.pdf
§ 1. Definition of Simultaneity
Oui, j'ai très bien lu cela, et malheureusement, je vois qu'Albert
Einstein va très vite pour poser
l'hypothèse de la relativité de la simultanéité entre A et B,
hypothèse qu'il réfute aussitôt par un tour de passe-passe.

Bref, c'est incroyable comme il gruge son entourage (comme Descartes l'a
fait dans son discours métaphysique, j'ai expliqué cela aux philosophes
et aux théologiensn il y a plus de quarante ans) en commençant
doucement, clairement, et en donnant le coup de graâce dès que le
lecteurs commence à assoupir ses paupières.

Einstein, là dessus, c'est du Descartes classique, et remarquablement
joué.

L'immense complot universel en marche.

Python doit jubiler.

Je vais ré-écrire cet article (depuis le temps que je le dis) surtout
que je n'ai besoin que de quelques lignes.

Je sais très bien que cela ne servira qu'à me faire cracher à la
gueule, parce que les hommes sont des hommes, et que 95% sont des singes.
Tant pis.

Reste 5%, peut-être, qui comprendront que ce que je dis est peut-être
juste, chose dont je suis personnellement sûr, puisque je maîtrise le
concept géométrique de la RR, et PAS les autres intervenants.

Visiblement toujours dépassés...

Qui s'appuie alors sur les bonnes bases?

R.H.
Python
2024-08-29 00:50:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul.B.Andersen
Post by Richard Hachel
1. On the notion of simultaneity in special relativity
https://paulba.no/paper/Electrodynamics.pdf
§ 1. Definition of Simultaneity
Oui, j'ai très bien lu cela, et [...]
Ah ? Voyons ça :

En 2007, présenté à l'équation t'_A - t_B = t_B - t_A tu eus cette
?????
Attends, je rêve, là...
Cela veut dire qu’Einstein trouve que les montres sont synchronisées si elles
battent à la même vitesse ? ? ?
C’est ça que tu veux dire ? ? ?
*Parce que l’équation dite ici dessus, c’est ça*. [souligné par nous]
Mais j’en ai rien à foutre de ça ! Je le sais implicitement, ça ! N’importe quel
abruti (même Vicnent t’as qu’à voir) le sait implicitement !
Mais c’est PAS DU TOUT mon propos. J’en parle même pas de ça. C’est
tellement évident que je n’en parle pas.
Plus récemment c'était que t_A, t_B, t'_A dépendaient de
l'« examinateur » (ce dont tu semble avoir, enfin, saisi
l'absurdité. Mje n'en suis même pas sûr).

Donc NON tu ne peux pas décemment dire que l'a "très bien lu", "cela".

Et il ne s'agit que du paragraphe I.1. du papier d'Einstein !!!
Python
2024-08-29 01:33:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul.B.Andersen
Post by Richard Hachel
1. On the notion of simultaneity in special relativity
https://paulba.no/paper/Electrodynamics.pdf
§ 1. Definition of Simultaneity
Oui, j'ai très bien lu cela, et [...]
Oh really ? You're "read this very well". Let's see

En 2007, when presented with the equation t'_A - t_B = t_B - t_A
you answered.
?????
Attends, je rêve, là...
Cela veut dire qu’Einstein trouve que les montres sont synchronisées si elles
battent à la même vitesse ? ? ?
C’est ça que tu veux dire ? ? ?
Parce que l’équation dite ici dessus, c’est ça.
Mais j’en ai rien à foutre de ça ! Je le sais implicitement, ça ! N’importe quel
abruti (même Vicnent t’as qu’à voir) le sait implicitement !
Mais c’est PAS DU TOUT mon propos. J’en parle même pas de ça. C’est
tellement évident que je n’en parle pas.
Translation:

"This equation means that both clocks beat at the same rate." (+
idiotic trumpian bragging)

More recently you claimed that t_A, t_B, t'_A values depended on the
observer.

So no, you cannot pretend honestly that "you've read it very well".

And we are only dealing with paragraph I.1.

(same remark apply to Heger btw)
Mikko
2024-08-29 08:47:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Hachel
Post by Paul.B.Andersen
Post by Richard Hachel
1. On the notion of simultaneity in special relativity
https://paulba.no/paper/Electrodynamics.pdf
§ 1. Definition of Simultaneity
Oui, j'ai très bien lu cela, et malheureusement, je vois qu'Albert
Einstein va très vite pour poser
l'hypothèse de la relativité de la simultanéité entre A et B, hypothèse
qu'il réfute aussitôt par un tour de passe-passe.
Observation that an unjustified hypothesis can be avoided is
not "poser l'hypothese".
--
Mikko
Paul.B.Andersen
2024-08-29 09:00:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Hachel
Post by Paul.B.Andersen
Post by Richard Hachel
1. On the notion of simultaneity in special relativity
https://paulba.no/paper/Electrodynamics.pdf
§ 1. Definition of Simultaneity
§ 2. On the Relativity of Lengths and Times
Richard Hachel has nothing sensible to add.>
<snip babble>
--
Paul

https://paulba.no/
Mikko
2024-08-29 08:40:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Hachel
1. On the notion of simultaneity in special relativity
The notion of simultaneity being defined by the coincident existence
of all events occurring at the same time, or even, being characterized
by the set of all physical phenomena occurring at the same instant,
You can't define that way unless you first define what "at the same time"
means.
Post by Richard Hachel
one should be able, at least by considering all the fixed components
found in a given inertial system, to speak of "absolute simultaneity",
"universal synchronization", or "common calendar" - these terms then
being capable of acquiring a real physical meaning - if one could,
without it varying, transpose the simultaneity proper to a particular
observer to all other inertial observers present in the same frame of
reference.
The words "ablsolute", "universal" and "common" should not be used for
concepts that are specific to one inertial frame.
Post by Richard Hachel
It would suffice to find any signal, or any action, by which a body A could
interact instantaneously with a body B, that is to say by means of
information propagating infinitely quickly, for this notion of
"absolute simultaneity" to be experimentally proven. We could then say
that
the action induced by body A was instantly transmitted to body B, or
that the action produced by
body A was carried out at the same time as its detection by body B, and
that there exists, de facto, between A and B, a sort of reciprocal and
absolute simultaneity.
We could also imagine a round-trip signal carried out over the distance
x separating A and B, and carried out by means of infinitely rapid
information, in such a way that the instants Ta (departure noted by
watch A) and Ta' (return noted by watch A) are simultaneous. It would
easily come that if the two watches A and B are "correctly" tuned (for
example by using an electromagnetic signal from the medium M of AB,
or by slowly moving apart the two watches that we would have previously
synchronized at the same place)
then the instant Tb (instant noted by B for the reflection of the
signal) would be the same as the instants Ta and Ta',
since if Ta'-Ta = 0 by definition, then |Tb-Ta| + |Ta'-Tb| = 0, hence
Ta =Ta'=Tb, and, by practicing in this way
step by step, for a multitude of other points C, D, E, F, G, H, I and
so on, the notion of general coexistence
in perfect absolute simultaneity of all the fixed components of a given
inertial frame R
could be demonstrated.
However, this proof does not exist: we know that a body can act at a
distance on another body - for example in the
form of an electromagnetic wave, in the form of a mechanical shock
transmitted along a rigid rod, or
in the form of a gravitational interaction - but we have never found a
signal that is infinitely fast,
or an action at a distance that is instantaneous. It seems rather, in
fact, that there exists, in nature, a sort of
uncrossable limit speed that we will find for any Galilean frame of
reference considered - a limit
observable speed, the true keystone of modern science - and which will
extend to all particles and all
properties of physics.
We can then suppose, and state, in light of what we have just said, the
"the notion of simultaneity is relative by any change of observer; even
fixed between them, different
observers placed in different places, build different systems of
simultaneity"; and, thus, generally, in a given system, two or more
simultaneous events for an observer A will no longer be so, and
reciprocally, for an observer B, even perfectly inertial.
We also can do otherwise. It is best to define simultaneity so that it
can be used for the construction of the time coordinate of a coordinate
system. If we can find a signal that has the same speed in all directions
we can use that. For example, sound in a metal bar that is stationary
with respect to the coordinate system being constructed.
--
Mikko
Maciej Wozniak
2024-08-29 08:46:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mikko
The words "ablsolute", "universal" and "common" should not be used for
concepts that are specific to one inertial frame.
Otherwise the spirit of our Giant Guru
will become VERY angry, and his doggies
will bark, and spit, and wave their arms.
Richard Hachel
2024-08-29 11:32:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mikko
We also can do otherwise. It is best to define simultaneity so that it
can be used for the construction of the time coordinate of a coordinate
system. If we can find a signal that has the same speed in all directions
we can use that. For example, sound in a metal bar that is stationary
with respect to the coordinate system being constructed.
Mikko
If I could send a sound along a metal bar from here to the moon (a bar
3.10^8m long for example). The sound itself would not be constant
according to the longitudinal direction of travel.
It would be faster in the return direction. And vice versa for a lunar
observer.

Do you understand this?
[ ] Yes
[ ] No

R.H.
Paul.B.Andersen
2024-08-29 12:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Hachel
If I could send a sound along a metal bar from here to the moon (a bar
3.10^8m long for example). The sound itself would not be constant
according to the longitudinal direction of travel.
If we ignore the fact that your scenario as always is impossible by
a number of different reasons:

The speed of sound in a steel rod is ca. 5 km/s in both directions.
T ≈ 3e8/5e3 s = 60000 s = 16.7 h in either direction.
Post by Richard Hachel
It would be faster in the return direction. And vice versa for a lunar
observer.
--
Paul

https://paulba.no/
Richard Hachel
2024-08-29 12:50:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul.B.Andersen
The speed of sound in a steel rod is ca. 5 km/s in both directions.
Encore un qui n'a rien compris à ce que je dis.

Mais c'est pas d'ça qu'on parle!!!

R.H.
Richard Hachel
2024-08-29 12:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Hachel
Post by Paul.B.Andersen
The speed of sound in a steel rod is ca. 5 km/s in both directions.
Encore un qui n'a rien compris à ce que je dis.
Mais c'est pas d'ça qu'on parle!!!
R.H.
C'est triste.

R.H.
Mikko
2024-08-30 13:47:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Hachel
Post by Mikko
We also can do otherwise. It is best to define simultaneity so that it
can be used for the construction of the time coordinate of a coordinate
system. If we can find a signal that has the same speed in all directions
we can use that. For example, sound in a metal bar that is stationary
with respect to the coordinate system being constructed.
Mikko
If I could send a sound along a metal bar from here to the moon (a bar
3.10^8m long for example). The sound itself would not be constant
according to the longitudinal direction of travel.
It would be faster in the return direction. And vice versa for a lunar
observer.
There is no basis to say that the speed of sound is different in different
directions or for different pbserves. The speed is the distance divided by
the duration. But the duration does not exists unless the notion "at the
same time" is defined, and if the duration doesn't exist then neither does
the speed.

EInstein's synchronization is for clocks that are at rest relative to
each other. Moon and therefore a clock on Moon is not at rest relative
to a Earth and a clock on Earth. Therefore the defintion of "at the
same time" must be chosen differently if Moon needs be covered.
--
Mikko
Maciej Wozniak
2024-08-30 13:54:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mikko
Post by Richard Hachel
Post by Mikko
We also can do otherwise. It is best to define simultaneity so that it
can be used for the construction of the time coordinate of a coordinate
system. If we can find a signal that has the same speed in all directions
we can use that. For example, sound in a metal bar that is stationary
with respect to the coordinate system being constructed.
Mikko
If I could send a sound along a metal bar from here to the moon (a bar
3.10^8m long for example). The sound itself would not be constant
according to the longitudinal direction of travel.
It would be faster in the return direction. And vice versa for a lunar
observer.
There is no basis to say that the speed of sound is different in different
directions or for different pbserves. The speed is the distance divided by
the duration. But the duration does not exists unless the notion "at the
same time" is defined, and if the duration doesn't exist then neither does
the speed.
EInstein's synchronization is for clocks that are at rest relative to
each other. Moon and therefore a clock on Moon is not at rest relative
to a Earth and a clock on Earth. Therefore the defintion of "at the
same time" must be chosen differently if Moon needs be covered.
Must be indeed, too bad for your idiot
guru and his Holy Procedure.
Richard Hachel
2024-08-30 16:48:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mikko
There is no basis to say that the speed of sound is different in different
directions or for different pbserves.
Absolutely.

It is no basis.

Mais lorsqu'on a compris la théorie de la relativité enseignée par le
bon docteur Hachel,
on se moque bien de ce que pense le commun des mortels, et même Albert
Einstein.

Le reste n'est pas sceintifique et consiste à dire : "Qui c'est entre
Albert et Richard avait la plus grosse? qui aurait pu le mieux contenter
Mileva?"

Ces question-là ne sont proposées que par le singerie humaine.

No, it is no basis.

But it is.

Cela s'étant à toutes les lois de la physique.

Si la lumière a un retard, le son l'aura aussi. Identique.

R.H.
Paul.B.Andersen
2024-08-30 17:59:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Hachel
Post by Mikko
There is no basis to say that the speed of sound is different in different
directions or for different pbserves.
Absolutely.
It is no basis.
But when we understand the theory of relativity taught by the good doctor Hachel,
we don't care what ordinary people, and even Albert Einstein, think.
"Who between Albert and Richard had the biggest one?
Who could have satisfied Mileva best?"
R.H.
'nuff said!
--
Paul

https://paulba.no/
Mikko
2024-08-31 08:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Hachel
Post by Mikko
There is no basis to say that the speed of sound is different in different
directions or for different pbserves.
Absolutely.
It is no basis.
Mais lorsqu'on a compris la théorie de la relativité enseignée
par le bon docteur Hachel,
We already understand that there is nothing worth of understanding there
except that there is noting worth of understanding there.
--
Mikko
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