Using a pulsar as a clock to measure Time Dilation

[Ed Lake]

When discussing Time Dilation, the use of regular clocks
just leads to arguments about "seeing" some clock that is
in a space ship that is a billion miles away. And there is the
complication of the speed of light when viewing things that
are billions of miles away.

Back in May 2015, I wrote a paper about using a PULSAR
as a clock to measure Time Dilation. To simplify things,
I used a pulsar that pulses once ever 10 seconds when
viewed from earth. And I used a space ship that is traveling
at right angles to the pulsar, so that there is no change in
the pulse rate due to moving toward or away from the pulsar.

When the space ship starts to move at high speeds away from
the earth, time slows down on the space ship. Instead of
seeing the pulsar pulse once every 10 seconds, as the ship
accelerates faster and faster, the passengers see the pulsar
pulse once every 9 seconds, then once every 8 seconds,
etc., until they are at cruising speed and they see the pulsar
plus once every second. Then, after about 6 months, they
slow down, turn around, and repeat the speeding up process
to return to earth.

When they return to earth, due to Time Dilation, the passengers
on the space ship are about 1 year older than when they left on
their one year trip. But people on earth are TEN years older.

EVERYONE counted the same number of pulses from the
pulsar: 31,553,280. No one was ever ahead or behind anyone
else in time. No one FELT any effects of Time Dilation. But,
due to Time Dilation, people on the spaceship counted
31,553,280 pulses in 1 year, while people on earth counted
31,553,280 pulses in 10 years.

Here's my paper: https://vixra.org/pdf/1505.0234v1.pdf

Doe anyone see any fault in this thought experiment?

[Dirk Van de moortel]

Post by Ed Lake
When discussing Time Dilation, the use of regular clocks
just leads to arguments about "seeing" some clock that is
in a space ship that is a billion miles away. And there is the
complication of the speed of light when viewing things that
are billions of miles away.
Back in May 2015, I wrote a paper about using a PULSAR
as a clock to measure Time Dilation. To simplify things,
I used a pulsar that pulses once ever 10 seconds when
viewed from earth. And I used a space ship that is traveling
at right angles to the pulsar, so that there is no change in
the pulse rate due to moving toward or away from the pulsar.
When the space ship starts to move at high speeds away from
the earth, time slows down on the space ship. Instead of
seeing the pulsar pulse once every 10 seconds, as the ship
accelerates faster and faster, the passengers see the pulsar
pulse once every 9 seconds, then once every 8 seconds,
etc., until they are at cruising speed and they see the pulsar
plus once every second. Then, after about 6 months, they
slow down, turn around, and repeat the speeding up process
to return to earth.
When they return to earth, due to Time Dilation, the passengers
on the space ship are about 1 year older than when they left on
their one year trip. But people on earth are TEN years older.
EVERYONE counted the same number of pulses from the
pulsar: 31,553,280. No one was ever ahead or behind anyone
else in time. No one FELT any effects of Time Dilation. But,
due to Time Dilation, people on the spaceship counted
31,553,280 pulses in 1 year, while people on earth counted
31,553,280 pulses in 10 years.
Here's my paper: https://vixra.org/pdf/1505.0234v1.pdf
Doe anyone see any fault in this thought experiment?

I do see a fault in the assumptions you make about your
relevance.

Dirk Vdm

[Ed Lake]

Post by Ed Lake
When discussing Time Dilation, the use of regular clocks
just leads to arguments about "seeing" some clock that is
in a space ship that is a billion miles away. And there is the
complication of the speed of light when viewing things that
are billions of miles away.
Back in May 2015, I wrote a paper about using a PULSAR
as a clock to measure Time Dilation. To simplify things,
I used a pulsar that pulses once ever 10 seconds when
viewed from earth. And I used a space ship that is traveling
at right angles to the pulsar, so that there is no change in
the pulse rate due to moving toward or away from the pulsar.
When the space ship starts to move at high speeds away from
the earth, time slows down on the space ship. Instead of
seeing the pulsar pulse once every 10 seconds, as the ship
accelerates faster and faster, the passengers see the pulsar
pulse once every 9 seconds, then once every 8 seconds,
etc., until they are at cruising speed and they see the pulsar
plus once every second. Then, after about 6 months, they
slow down, turn around, and repeat the speeding up process
to return to earth.
When they return to earth, due to Time Dilation, the passengers
on the space ship are about 1 year older than when they left on
their one year trip. But people on earth are TEN years older.
EVERYONE counted the same number of pulses from the
pulsar: 31,553,280. No one was ever ahead or behind anyone
else in time. No one FELT any effects of Time Dilation. But,
due to Time Dilation, people on the spaceship counted
31,553,280 pulses in 1 year, while people on earth counted
31,553,280 pulses in 10 years.
Here's my paper: https://vixra.org/pdf/1505.0234v1.pdf
Doe anyone see any fault in this thought experiment?

This seems like the PERFECT experiment to resolve all disputes
over how Time Dilation works. Is that why no one wants to discuss
it? Because you can't find any arguments against it?

Ed

[Odd Bodkin]

Post by Ed Lake

Post by Ed Lake
When discussing Time Dilation, the use of regular clocks
just leads to arguments about "seeing" some clock that is
in a space ship that is a billion miles away. And there is the
complication of the speed of light when viewing things that
are billions of miles away.
Back in May 2015, I wrote a paper about using a PULSAR
as a clock to measure Time Dilation. To simplify things,
I used a pulsar that pulses once ever 10 seconds when
viewed from earth. And I used a space ship that is traveling
at right angles to the pulsar, so that there is no change in
the pulse rate due to moving toward or away from the pulsar.
When the space ship starts to move at high speeds away from
the earth, time slows down on the space ship. Instead of
seeing the pulsar pulse once every 10 seconds, as the ship
accelerates faster and faster, the passengers see the pulsar
pulse once every 9 seconds, then once every 8 seconds,
etc., until they are at cruising speed and they see the pulsar
plus once every second. Then, after about 6 months, they
slow down, turn around, and repeat the speeding up process
to return to earth.
When they return to earth, due to Time Dilation, the passengers
on the space ship are about 1 year older than when they left on
their one year trip. But people on earth are TEN years older.
EVERYONE counted the same number of pulses from the
pulsar: 31,553,280. No one was ever ahead or behind anyone
else in time. No one FELT any effects of Time Dilation. But,
due to Time Dilation, people on the spaceship counted
31,553,280 pulses in 1 year, while people on earth counted
31,553,280 pulses in 10 years.
Here's my paper: https://vixra.org/pdf/1505.0234v1.pdf
Doe anyone see any fault in this thought experiment?

This seems like the PERFECT experiment to resolve all disputes
over how Time Dilation works. Is that why no one wants to discuss
it? Because you can't find any arguments against it?
Ed

No Ed, the reason no one wants to engage in discussion about it is that
everyone here knows that you know nothing about the subject, but you THINK
you do, as illustrated by your assessment that this is a “PERFECT”
experiment to do.

[Ed Lake]

Post by Odd Bodkin

Post by Ed Lake

Post by Ed Lake
When discussing Time Dilation, the use of regular clocks
just leads to arguments about "seeing" some clock that is
in a space ship that is a billion miles away. And there is the
complication of the speed of light when viewing things that
are billions of miles away.
Back in May 2015, I wrote a paper about using a PULSAR
as a clock to measure Time Dilation. To simplify things,
I used a pulsar that pulses once ever 10 seconds when
viewed from earth. And I used a space ship that is traveling
at right angles to the pulsar, so that there is no change in
the pulse rate due to moving toward or away from the pulsar.
When the space ship starts to move at high speeds away from
the earth, time slows down on the space ship. Instead of
seeing the pulsar pulse once every 10 seconds, as the ship
accelerates faster and faster, the passengers see the pulsar
pulse once every 9 seconds, then once every 8 seconds,
etc., until they are at cruising speed and they see the pulsar
plus once every second. Then, after about 6 months, they
slow down, turn around, and repeat the speeding up process
to return to earth.
When they return to earth, due to Time Dilation, the passengers
on the space ship are about 1 year older than when they left on
their one year trip. But people on earth are TEN years older.
EVERYONE counted the same number of pulses from the
pulsar: 31,553,280. No one was ever ahead or behind anyone
else in time. No one FELT any effects of Time Dilation. But,
due to Time Dilation, people on the spaceship counted
31,553,280 pulses in 1 year, while people on earth counted
31,553,280 pulses in 10 years.
Here's my paper: https://vixra.org/pdf/1505.0234v1.pdf
Doe anyone see any fault in this thought experiment?

This seems like the PERFECT experiment to resolve all disputes
over how Time Dilation works. Is that why no one wants to discuss
it? Because you can't find any arguments against it?
Ed

No Ed, the reason no one wants to engage in discussion about it is that
everyone here knows that you know nothing about the subject, but you THINK
you do, as illustrated by your assessment that this is a “PERFECT”
experiment to do.

So, you're saying that everyone here has a closed mind, and therefore
they do not want to discuss anything? They just want to preach their
beliefs? I was hoping that wasn't true.

The idea of using a pulsar as a clock that BOTH parties can see when
one is "stationary" and the other is traveling at high speeds STOPS all
arguments about "illusions" and eliminates any need to use complex
equations. It really shatters the beliefs of most people here. I can see
why they do not want to discuss it.

Ed

[Cliff Hallston]

Post by Ed Lake
This seems like the PERFECT experiment to resolve all disputes
over how Time Dilation works.

What disputes? There aren't any disputes (among competent scientists) about how time dilation works. Special relativity gives a perfectly accurate account of the scenario you described, and no knowledgeable person disputes it.

Post by Ed Lake
No one was ever ahead or behind anyone else in time.

That's not correct (in any meaningful sense). In terms of any chosen system of coordinates we can compute the elapsed time for each object at any given coordinate time. The elapsed times for various objects are different, so it's not correct to say that no one is ever ahead or behind, at least not if you are referring to proper times at equal coordinate times.

Post by Ed Lake
No one FELT any effects of Time Dilation.

That's an ambiguous statement, because you haven't indicated what "feelings" you are talking about (how would one "feel" time dilation?), but the spaceship was subjected to extreme levels of acceleration at a distance to turn around, so the passengers certainly feel a very different experience than the people on earth, and this is correlated directly with the variations in the rate of elapsed proper time versus coordinate time, as is the differences in gravitational potential of people on earth versus out in space, which can also be "felt". Purely by dead-reckoning from rest in a particular frame we can, in principle, always compute the coordinate time from that frame, even after we have changed our state of motion arbitrarily.

Post by Ed Lake

Post by Ed Lake
Doe anyone see any fault in this thought experiment?

If you get the same answers as general relativity, then there is no fault in your answers. If you get different answers, then there is a fault in your answers. But that's beside the point until you explain what you think is disputed. There aren't any disputes (among real scientists) about how time dilation works.

Post by Ed Lake
It really shatters the beliefs of most people here.

What beliefs are those? The scenario you described is quite mundane, and it is perfectly well described by standard special and general relativity: dtau/dx^0 = sqrt[g_mn dx^m dx^n]/dx^0 where x^0 = t. Given x^1, x^2, x^3 as functions of x^0, we can integrate this expression for the rate to give the elapsed time.

[Ed Lake]

Post by Cliff Hallston

Post by Ed Lake
This seems like the PERFECT experiment to resolve all disputes
over how Time Dilation works.

What disputes? There aren't any disputes (among competent scientists) about how time dilation works. Special relativity gives a perfectly accurate account of the scenario you described, and no knowledgeable person disputes it.

That may be true in some Fantasyland, but on this forum and in countless books
and papers, the arguments about Time Dilation have raged for over 110 years.

Post by Cliff Hallston

Post by Ed Lake
No one was ever ahead or behind anyone else in time.

That's not correct (in any meaningful sense). In terms of any chosen system of coordinates we can compute the elapsed time for each object at any given coordinate time. The elapsed times for various objects are different, so it's not correct to say that no one is ever ahead or behind, at least not if you are referring to proper times at equal coordinate times.

I was saying that if two people are experiencing time pass at different rates,
one is never behind the other. They do not "catch up" when they come
together again.

Post by Cliff Hallston

Post by Ed Lake
No one FELT any effects of Time Dilation.

That's an ambiguous statement, because you haven't indicated what "feelings" you are talking about (how would one "feel" time dilation?), but the spaceship was subjected to extreme levels of acceleration at a distance to turn around, so the passengers certainly feel a very different experience than the people on earth, and this is correlated directly with the variations in the rate of elapsed proper time versus coordinate time, as is the differences in gravitational potential of people on earth versus out in space, which can also be "felt". Purely by dead-reckoning from rest in a particular frame we can, in principle, always compute the coordinate time from that frame, even after we have changed our state of motion arbitrarily.

I was merely saying that both observers saw 24 hours in a day.
That never changed for either observer. But they saw time
tick at different rates according to the pulsar "clock."

Post by Cliff Hallston

Post by Ed Lake

Post by Ed Lake
Doe anyone see any fault in this thought experiment?

If you get the same answers as general relativity, then there is no fault in your answers. If you get different answers, then there is a fault in your answers. But that's beside the point until you explain what you think is disputed. There aren't any disputes (among real scientists) about how time dilation works.

Post by Ed Lake
It really shatters the beliefs of most people here.

The experiment has nothing to do with General Relativity. It is almost
entirely about Special Relativity. One observer is traveling faster than
the other.

Post by Cliff Hallston
What beliefs are those? The scenario you described is quite mundane, and it is perfectly well described by standard special and general relativity: dtau/dx^0 = sqrt[g_mn dx^m dx^n]/dx^0 where x^0 = t. Given x^1, x^2, x^3 as functions of x^0, we can integrate this expression for the rate to give the elapsed time.

Elapsed time for whom?

[Cliff Hallston]

Post by Ed Lake

Post by Cliff Hallston
There aren't any disputes (among competent scientists) about how time dilation works. Special relativity gives a perfectly accurate account of the scenario you described, and no knowledgeable person disputes it.

That may be true in some Fantasyland, but on this forum and in countless books
and papers, the arguments about Time Dilation have raged for over 110 years.

This forum is of no relevance, since it's populated almost entirely with people who don't know what they are talking about. It's true that some books have been written, by kooks like Herbert Dingle, expressing misunderstandings about special relativity in general and time dilation in particular, but those are not counter-examples to my statement, which referred to competent scientists. I say again, no competent physicist disputes the simple relativistic treatment of time dilation as given in every text book and taught by every physics professor. There is no scientific dispute about this.

Post by Ed Lake
I was saying that if two people are experiencing time pass at different rates,
one is never behind the other. They do not "catch up" when they come together again.

You said "No one was ever ahead or behind anyone else in time.", and I explained why that's not true. Now you say "one is never behind the other", which is also not true. The elapsed time for two objects following different paths between two events are generally different, so in that sense one is behind the other, and this can be tracked during their journeys in terms of any given system of coordinates. Yes, they do not generally "catch up" when reunited. There's no scientific dispute about this.

Post by Ed Lake
I was merely saying that both observers saw 24 hours in a day.

Huh? What is a "day" for someone in a spaceship far from earth? Perhaps what you mean is that each clock runs at its own rate. That's an empty tautology. Or perhaps you mean that each clock would correctly time the cooking of co-moving egg, and every other characteristic physical process. So you're just saying an ideal clock indicates proper time along its path, which is essentially the definition of an ideal clock. If that's what you were trying to say, then yes, that is correct.

Post by Ed Lake
That never changed for either observer. But they saw time
tick at different rates according to the pulsar "clock."

Sure, the value of the observed frequency of pulses in terms of the co-moving coordinates of the earth and the spaceship we be in accord with the Doppler formula for general relativity, which takes into account the time dilation for both gravity and motion. There's no scientific dispute about this.

Post by Ed Lake
The experiment has nothing to do with General Relativity. It is almost
entirely about Special Relativity. One observer is traveling faster than
the other.

It has to do with general relativity because the clock on the earth's surface is in the earth's gravitational field, subject to gravitational time dilation, whereas the clock in the rocket is far away from the gravitational fields of the earth and sun. To account for this, general relativity must be used.

Post by Ed Lake

Post by Cliff Hallston

Post by Ed Lake
It really shatters the beliefs of most people here.

What beliefs are those? The scenario you described is quite mundane, and it is perfectly well described by standard special and general relativity: dtau/dx^0 = sqrt[g_mn dx^m dx^n]/dx^0 where x^0 = t. Given x^1, x^2, x^3 as functions of x^0, we can integrate this expression for the rate to give the elapsed time.

Elapsed time for whom?

The elapsed time along the path defined by the functions x(t), y(t), and z(t) where x,y,z,t is any global system of coordinates. For example, you have one path followed by the clock on earth, and another path followed by the clock in the spaceship, and you can easily compute their elapsed times s a function of the coordinate time t. This correctly accounts for both their gravitational potentials and their states of motion.

[Odd Bodkin]

Post by Ed Lake

Post by Cliff Hallston

Post by Ed Lake
This seems like the PERFECT experiment to resolve all disputes
over how Time Dilation works.

What disputes? There aren't any disputes (among competent scientists)
about how time dilation works. Special relativity gives a perfectly
accurate account of the scenario you described, and no knowledgeable person disputes it.

That may be true in some Fantasyland, but on this forum and in countless books
and papers, the arguments about Time Dilation have raged for over 110 years.

Maybe on this forum, yes. But there are also forums that insist that the
mammalian eye was the product of intelligent design and forums that insist
we never put a man on the moon and forums that insist that the earth is
flat. These do not, however, constitute raging controversies.

There are also books and lots of web articles that the earth’s flatness has
not been disproven. Does that make the roundness of the earth
controversial? Well, maybe to someone who WANTS it to be controversial.

Post by Ed Lake

Post by Cliff Hallston

Post by Ed Lake
No one was ever ahead or behind anyone else in time.

That's not correct (in any meaningful sense). In terms of any chosen
system of coordinates we can compute the elapsed time for each object at
any given coordinate time. The elapsed times for various objects are
different, so it's not correct to say that no one is ever ahead or
behind, at least not if you are referring to proper times at equal coordinate times.

I was saying that if two people are experiencing time pass at different rates,
one is never behind the other. They do not "catch up" when they come
together again.

Post by Cliff Hallston

Post by Ed Lake
No one FELT any effects of Time Dilation.

That's an ambiguous statement, because you haven't indicated what
"feelings" you are talking about (how would one "feel" time dilation?),
but the spaceship was subjected to extreme levels of acceleration at a
distance to turn around, so the passengers certainly feel a very
different experience than the people on earth, and this is correlated
directly with the variations in the rate of elapsed proper time versus
coordinate time, as is the differences in gravitational potential of
people on earth versus out in space, which can also be "felt". Purely by
dead-reckoning from rest in a particular frame we can, in principle,
always compute the coordinate time from that frame, even after we have
changed our state of motion arbitrarily.

I was merely saying that both observers saw 24 hours in a day.
That never changed for either observer. But they saw time
tick at different rates according to the pulsar "clock."

Post by Cliff Hallston

Post by Ed Lake

Post by Ed Lake
Doe anyone see any fault in this thought experiment?

If you get the same answers as general relativity, then there is no
fault in your answers. If you get different answers, then there is a
fault in your answers. But that's beside the point until you explain
what you think is disputed. There aren't any disputes (among real
scientists) about how time dilation works.

Post by Ed Lake
It really shatters the beliefs of most people here.

The experiment has nothing to do with General Relativity. It is almost
entirely about Special Relativity. One observer is traveling faster than
the other.

Post by Cliff Hallston
What beliefs are those? The scenario you described is quite mundane, and
it is perfectly well described by standard special and general
relativity: dtau/dx^0 = sqrt[g_mn dx^m dx^n]/dx^0 where x^0 = t. Given
x^1, x^2, x^3 as functions of x^0, we can integrate this expression for
the rate to give the elapsed time.

Elapsed time for whom?

[Odd Bodkin]

Post by Ed Lake

Post by Odd Bodkin

Post by Ed Lake

Post by Ed Lake
When discussing Time Dilation, the use of regular clocks
just leads to arguments about "seeing" some clock that is
in a space ship that is a billion miles away. And there is the
complication of the speed of light when viewing things that
are billions of miles away.
Back in May 2015, I wrote a paper about using a PULSAR
as a clock to measure Time Dilation. To simplify things,
I used a pulsar that pulses once ever 10 seconds when
viewed from earth. And I used a space ship that is traveling
at right angles to the pulsar, so that there is no change in
the pulse rate due to moving toward or away from the pulsar.
When the space ship starts to move at high speeds away from
the earth, time slows down on the space ship. Instead of
seeing the pulsar pulse once every 10 seconds, as the ship
accelerates faster and faster, the passengers see the pulsar
pulse once every 9 seconds, then once every 8 seconds,
etc., until they are at cruising speed and they see the pulsar
plus once every second. Then, after about 6 months, they
slow down, turn around, and repeat the speeding up process
to return to earth.
When they return to earth, due to Time Dilation, the passengers
on the space ship are about 1 year older than when they left on
their one year trip. But people on earth are TEN years older.
EVERYONE counted the same number of pulses from the
pulsar: 31,553,280. No one was ever ahead or behind anyone
else in time. No one FELT any effects of Time Dilation. But,
due to Time Dilation, people on the spaceship counted
31,553,280 pulses in 1 year, while people on earth counted
31,553,280 pulses in 10 years.
Here's my paper: https://vixra.org/pdf/1505.0234v1.pdf
Doe anyone see any fault in this thought experiment?

This seems like the PERFECT experiment to resolve all disputes
over how Time Dilation works. Is that why no one wants to discuss
it? Because you can't find any arguments against it?
Ed

No Ed, the reason no one wants to engage in discussion about it is that
everyone here knows that you know nothing about the subject, but you THINK
you do, as illustrated by your assessment that this is a “PERFECT”
experiment to do.

So, you're saying that everyone here has a closed mind, and therefore
they do not want to discuss anything? They just want to preach their
beliefs? I was hoping that wasn't true.

No, I didn’t say that. There are lots of people who decline to preach, and
who have open minds, and STILL would not care to have a discussion with
someone who doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Surely you can see that
possibility?

Or is it your notion that the definition of having an open mind is being
willing to discuss a topic with someone who doesn’t know what he’s talking
about?

Post by Ed Lake
The idea of using a pulsar as a clock that BOTH parties can see when
one is "stationary" and the other is traveling at high speeds STOPS all
arguments about "illusions" and eliminates any need to use complex
equations. It really shatters the beliefs of most people here. I can see
why they do not want to discuss it.

I think it’s says more about your lack of understanding of what beliefs you
think you’re shattering. As I said, you THINK you know what you’re talking
about, but you actually don’t.

Do you have an open mind to that possibility?

Post by Ed Lake
Ed

[Ed Lake]

Post by Odd Bodkin

Post by Ed Lake

Post by Odd Bodkin

Post by Ed Lake

Post by Ed Lake
When discussing Time Dilation, the use of regular clocks
just leads to arguments about "seeing" some clock that is
in a space ship that is a billion miles away. And there is the
complication of the speed of light when viewing things that
are billions of miles away.
Back in May 2015, I wrote a paper about using a PULSAR
as a clock to measure Time Dilation. To simplify things,
I used a pulsar that pulses once ever 10 seconds when
viewed from earth. And I used a space ship that is traveling
at right angles to the pulsar, so that there is no change in
the pulse rate due to moving toward or away from the pulsar.
When the space ship starts to move at high speeds away from
the earth, time slows down on the space ship. Instead of
seeing the pulsar pulse once every 10 seconds, as the ship
accelerates faster and faster, the passengers see the pulsar
pulse once every 9 seconds, then once every 8 seconds,
etc., until they are at cruising speed and they see the pulsar
plus once every second. Then, after about 6 months, they
slow down, turn around, and repeat the speeding up process
to return to earth.
When they return to earth, due to Time Dilation, the passengers
on the space ship are about 1 year older than when they left on
their one year trip. But people on earth are TEN years older.
EVERYONE counted the same number of pulses from the
pulsar: 31,553,280. No one was ever ahead or behind anyone
else in time. No one FELT any effects of Time Dilation. But,
due to Time Dilation, people on the spaceship counted
31,553,280 pulses in 1 year, while people on earth counted
31,553,280 pulses in 10 years.
Here's my paper: https://vixra.org/pdf/1505.0234v1.pdf
Doe anyone see any fault in this thought experiment?

This seems like the PERFECT experiment to resolve all disputes
over how Time Dilation works. Is that why no one wants to discuss
it? Because you can't find any arguments against it?
Ed

No Ed, the reason no one wants to engage in discussion about it is that
everyone here knows that you know nothing about the subject, but you THINK
you do, as illustrated by your assessment that this is a “PERFECT”
experiment to do.

So, you're saying that everyone here has a closed mind, and therefore
they do not want to discuss anything? They just want to preach their
beliefs? I was hoping that wasn't true.

No, I didn’t say that. There are lots of people who decline to preach, and
who have open minds, and STILL would not care to have a discussion with
someone who doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Surely you can see that
possibility?

It's a possibility, but in reality we LEARN from talking with people who have
different ideas that we do. Even if they are totally wrong, you still find that
explaining things in various different ways helps you to more fully understand
what your own argument is.

Post by Odd Bodkin
Or is it your notion that the definition of having an open mind is being
willing to discuss a topic with someone who doesn’t know what he’s talking
about?

Yes, it says you have already closed you mind by declaring that the other
person "doesn't know what he is talking about." If you discuss things in
HIS terms, you might learn that it is YOU who does not know what he is
talking about.

Post by Odd Bodkin

Post by Ed Lake
The idea of using a pulsar as a clock that BOTH parties can see when
one is "stationary" and the other is traveling at high speeds STOPS all
arguments about "illusions" and eliminates any need to use complex
equations. It really shatters the beliefs of most people here. I can see
why they do not want to discuss it.

I think it’s says more about your lack of understanding of what beliefs you
think you’re shattering. As I said, you THINK you know what you’re talking
about, but you actually don’t.
Do you have an open mind to that possibility?

Of course. But your argument is that I have to learn to agree with
what you believe before you will listen to any argument from me.
I'm arguing logic and science. You argue mathematical equations.
And you REFUSE to argue anything except mathematical equations.

The argument in my paper is not about mathematical equations.
It is about how time dilation works.

Ed

[Odd Bodkin]

Post by Ed Lake

Post by Odd Bodkin

Post by Ed Lake

Post by Odd Bodkin

Post by Ed Lake

Post by Ed Lake
When discussing Time Dilation, the use of regular clocks
just leads to arguments about "seeing" some clock that is
in a space ship that is a billion miles away. And there is the
complication of the speed of light when viewing things that
are billions of miles away.
Back in May 2015, I wrote a paper about using a PULSAR
as a clock to measure Time Dilation. To simplify things,
I used a pulsar that pulses once ever 10 seconds when
viewed from earth. And I used a space ship that is traveling
at right angles to the pulsar, so that there is no change in
the pulse rate due to moving toward or away from the pulsar.
When the space ship starts to move at high speeds away from
the earth, time slows down on the space ship. Instead of
seeing the pulsar pulse once every 10 seconds, as the ship
accelerates faster and faster, the passengers see the pulsar
pulse once every 9 seconds, then once every 8 seconds,
etc., until they are at cruising speed and they see the pulsar
plus once every second. Then, after about 6 months, they
slow down, turn around, and repeat the speeding up process
to return to earth.
When they return to earth, due to Time Dilation, the passengers
on the space ship are about 1 year older than when they left on
their one year trip. But people on earth are TEN years older.
EVERYONE counted the same number of pulses from the
pulsar: 31,553,280. No one was ever ahead or behind anyone
else in time. No one FELT any effects of Time Dilation. But,
due to Time Dilation, people on the spaceship counted
31,553,280 pulses in 1 year, while people on earth counted
31,553,280 pulses in 10 years.
Here's my paper: https://vixra.org/pdf/1505.0234v1.pdf
Doe anyone see any fault in this thought experiment?

This seems like the PERFECT experiment to resolve all disputes
over how Time Dilation works. Is that why no one wants to discuss
it? Because you can't find any arguments against it?
Ed

No Ed, the reason no one wants to engage in discussion about it is that
everyone here knows that you know nothing about the subject, but you THINK
you do, as illustrated by your assessment that this is a “PERFECT”
experiment to do.

So, you're saying that everyone here has a closed mind, and therefore
they do not want to discuss anything? They just want to preach their
beliefs? I was hoping that wasn't true.

No, I didn’t say that. There are lots of people who decline to preach, and
who have open minds, and STILL would not care to have a discussion with
someone who doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Surely you can see that
possibility?

It's a possibility, but in reality we LEARN from talking with people who have
different ideas that we do.

I dispute that. I learn nothing from someone who believes that the Apollo
mission is a hoax, or that the coronavirus is fictional, or that the earth
is flat.

Post by Ed Lake
Even if they are totally wrong, you still find that
explaining things in various different ways helps you to more fully understand
what your own argument is.

I disagree. It is a WASTE of time trying to make any argument to someone
who believes the Apollo landing was a hoax. Because in that case, the
person does not believe in facts, they believe in hidden conspiracies, and
no assemblage of facts is compelling and no argument will convince. It is a
WASTE OF TIME.

Post by Ed Lake

Post by Odd Bodkin
Or is it your notion that the definition of having an open mind is being
willing to discuss a topic with someone who doesn’t know what he’s talking
about?

Yes, it says you have already closed you mind by declaring that the other
person "doesn't know what he is talking about." If you discuss things in
HIS terms, you might learn that it is YOU who does not know what he is
talking about.

I’m sorry but this is just not so. There are a few simple assessments
anyone can do to tell if someone knows what they’re talking about. If
someone wants to engage in a conversation with me about woodworking but
they can’t tell the difference between a hardwood and a softwood, or they
can’t hold a plane properly, or any of a number of simple tests, then it
will be clear that discussions are futile.

In your case, Ed, what’s clear is that you don’t understand even the basics
of freshman physics, and yet you want to be paid heed about your thoughts
on relativity.

Post by Ed Lake

Post by Odd Bodkin

Post by Ed Lake
The idea of using a pulsar as a clock that BOTH parties can see when
one is "stationary" and the other is traveling at high speeds STOPS all
arguments about "illusions" and eliminates any need to use complex
equations. It really shatters the beliefs of most people here. I can see
why they do not want to discuss it.

I think it’s says more about your lack of understanding of what beliefs you
think you’re shattering. As I said, you THINK you know what you’re talking
about, but you actually don’t.
Do you have an open mind to that possibility?

Of course. But your argument is that I have to learn to agree with
what you believe before you will listen to any argument from me.

No, that is not true. What is true is that you have to demonstrate that you
know what words mean in physics, that you understand some of the basic
principles of physics and how they have been validated in experiment. This
does not mean that you have to agree. Education does not force agreement.
Reading does not brainwash.

What you offer is your uneducated opinion that physics does not involve
mathematics, that it involves no specialized vocabulary or precise
definitions, that it only requires common sense and a logical mind. This
tells everyone, Ed, two things: 1) that you don’t know any physics at all,
2) that you are uninterested in learning any of it (learn =/= believe)
because you don’t want to work that hard.

Post by Ed Lake
I'm arguing logic and science. You argue mathematical equations.
And you REFUSE to argue anything except mathematical equations.
The argument in my paper is not about mathematical equations.
It is about how time dilation works.
Ed

[Cliff Hallston]

Post by Ed Lake
This seems like the PERFECT experiment to resolve all disputes
over how Time Dilation works.

What disputes? There aren't any disputes about how time dilation works. Special relativity gives a perfectly accurate account of the scenario you described, and no knowledgeable person disputes it.

Post by Ed Lake
No one was ever ahead or behind anyone else in time.

That's not correct (in any meaningful sense). In terms of any chosen system of coordinates we can compute the elapsed time for each object at any given coordinate time. The elapsed times for various objects are different, so it is not correct to say that no one is ever ahead or behind, at least not if you are referring to proper times at equal coordinate times.

Post by Ed Lake
No one FELT any effects of Time Dilation.

That's an ambiguous statement, because you haven't indicated what "feelings" you are talking about (how does one "feel" time dilation?), but the spaceship was subjected to extreme levels of acceleration to turn around, so the passengers certainly feel a very different experience than the people on earth, and this is correlated directly with the variations in the rate of elapsed proper time versus coordinate time, as is the differences in gravitational potential of people on earth versus out in space, which can also be "felt".

Post by Ed Lake

Post by Ed Lake
Doe anyone see any fault in this thought experiment?

If you get the same answers as general relativity, then there is no fault in your answers. If you get different answers, then there is a fault in your answers. But that's beside the point until you explain what you think is disputed. Again, there aren't any disputes (among real scientists) about how time dilation works.

Post by Ed Lake
It really shatters the beliefs of most people here.

What beliefs are those? The scenario you described is quite mundane, and it is perfectly well described by standard special and general relativity: dtau/dx^0 = sqrt[g_mn dx^m dx^n]/d^0 where x^0 = t. Given x^1, x^2, x^3 as functions of x^0, we can integrate this expression for the rate to give the elapsed time.

[[e-mail]]

A pulsar's rotation will slow its time and give it more energy.
By moving in space there will be the same... more time slow and energy.
Neutron stars are end state matter not a BH.

[Ed Lake]

Post by ***@gmail.com
A pulsar's rotation will slow its time and give it more energy.
By moving in space there will be the same... more time slow and energy.
Neutron stars are end state matter not a BH.

The pulsar does not move relative to the two observers. That is what is
unique about the "thought experiment." Most arguments result from having
one observer be stationary relative to a clock while the other is moving.
Those arguments are eliminated. So are all arguments about the effect
motion has on the clock. It greatly simplifies Time Dilation.

Here's the link again: https://vixra.org/pdf/1505.0234v1.pdf

[Odd Bodkin]

Post by Ed Lake

Post by ***@gmail.com
A pulsar's rotation will slow its time and give it more energy.
By moving in space there will be the same... more time slow and energy.
Neutron stars are end state matter not a BH.

The pulsar does not move relative to the two observers.

So, since the two observers are moving relative to each other, there are
some details needed to ensure that the pulsar is not moving relative to
EITHER of the two observers.

And that detail was what exactly?

Post by Ed Lake
That is what is
unique about the "thought experiment." Most arguments result from having
one observer be stationary relative to a clock while the other is moving.
Those arguments are eliminated. So are all arguments about the effect
motion has on the clock. It greatly simplifies Time Dilation.
Here's the link again: https://vixra.org/pdf/1505.0234v1.pdf

[Ed Lake]

Post by Odd Bodkin

Post by ***@gmail.com
A pulsar's rotation will slow its time and give it more energy.
By moving in space there will be the same... more time slow and energy.
Neutron stars are end state matter not a BH.

The pulsar does not move relative to the two observers.

So, since the two observers are moving relative to each other, there are
some details needed to ensure that the pulsar is not moving relative to
EITHER of the two observers.
And that detail was what exactly?

It is the fact that the pulsar (the "clock") is tens of billions of miles away,
and that makes the difference in the angle to the pulsar negligible. The
minuscule change in the angle of observation has no effect on the experiment.

Post by Odd Bodkin

Here's the link again: https://vixra.org/pdf/1505.0234v1.pdf

[beda pietanza]

Post by Ed Lake
When discussing Time Dilation, the use of regular clocks
just leads to arguments about "seeing" some clock that is
in a space ship that is a billion miles away. And there is the
complication of the speed of light when viewing things that
are billions of miles away.
Back in May 2015, I wrote a paper about using a PULSAR
as a clock to measure Time Dilation. To simplify things,
I used a pulsar that pulses once ever 10 seconds when
viewed from earth. And I used a space ship that is traveling
at right angles to the pulsar, so that there is no change in
the pulse rate due to moving toward or away from the pulsar.
When the space ship starts to move at high speeds away from
the earth, time slows down on the space ship. Instead of
seeing the pulsar pulse once every 10 seconds, as the ship
accelerates faster and faster, the passengers see the pulsar
pulse once every 9 seconds, then once every 8 seconds,
etc., until they are at cruising speed and they see the pulsar
plus once every second. Then, after about 6 months, they
slow down, turn around, and repeat the speeding up process
to return to earth.
When they return to earth, due to Time Dilation, the passengers
on the space ship are about 1 year older than when they left on
their one year trip. But people on earth are TEN years older.
EVERYONE counted the same number of pulses from the
pulsar: 31,553,280. No one was ever ahead or behind anyone
else in time. No one FELT any effects of Time Dilation. But,
due to Time Dilation, people on the spaceship counted
31,553,280 pulses in 1 year, while people on earth counted
31,553,280 pulses in 10 years.
Here's my paper: https://vixra.org/pdf/1505.0234v1.pdf
Doe anyone see any fault in this thought experiment?

beda
when you use very high speed in a thought experiment, is to make evident a time dilatation
that at low speeds is negligible.

you thought experiment is impossible to realize because no high speed is permitted for macroscopic bodies
never has been seen or made any macroscopic body travel at speed higher than a very very small fraction of c

at high speed the atoms are depleted of their electrons and the binding forces of material objects would cease
their action and macro objects become just plasma like

in the accelerators no even atoms are accelerated but depleted nucleus

cheers
beda

[Odd Bodkin]

Post by beda pietanza

Post by Ed Lake
When discussing Time Dilation, the use of regular clocks
just leads to arguments about "seeing" some clock that is
in a space ship that is a billion miles away. And there is the
complication of the speed of light when viewing things that
are billions of miles away.
Back in May 2015, I wrote a paper about using a PULSAR
as a clock to measure Time Dilation. To simplify things,
I used a pulsar that pulses once ever 10 seconds when
viewed from earth. And I used a space ship that is traveling
at right angles to the pulsar, so that there is no change in
the pulse rate due to moving toward or away from the pulsar.
When the space ship starts to move at high speeds away from
the earth, time slows down on the space ship. Instead of
seeing the pulsar pulse once every 10 seconds, as the ship
accelerates faster and faster, the passengers see the pulsar
pulse once every 9 seconds, then once every 8 seconds,
etc., until they are at cruising speed and they see the pulsar
plus once every second. Then, after about 6 months, they
slow down, turn around, and repeat the speeding up process
to return to earth.
When they return to earth, due to Time Dilation, the passengers
on the space ship are about 1 year older than when they left on
their one year trip. But people on earth are TEN years older.
EVERYONE counted the same number of pulses from the
pulsar: 31,553,280. No one was ever ahead or behind anyone
else in time. No one FELT any effects of Time Dilation. But,
due to Time Dilation, people on the spaceship counted
31,553,280 pulses in 1 year, while people on earth counted
31,553,280 pulses in 10 years.
Here's my paper: https://vixra.org/pdf/1505.0234v1.pdf
Doe anyone see any fault in this thought experiment?

beda
when you use very high speed in a thought experiment, is to make evident a time dilatation
that at low speeds is negligible.
you thought experiment is impossible to realize because no high speed is
permitted for macroscopic bodies
never has been seen or made any macroscopic body travel at speed higher
than a very very small fraction of c
at high speed the atoms are depleted of their electrons and the binding
forces of material objects would cease
their action and macro objects become just plasma like

Beda, this is flat out bullshit.

Post by beda pietanza
in the accelerators no even atoms are accelerated but depleted nucleus

And there’s a reason why neutral atoms are not accelerated in an
accelerator, but I’m going to guess you have no idea why that’s done on
purpose, and so you just ASSUME the high speed has stripped the electrons
off. Right?

Take a look at RHIC by the way.

Post by beda pietanza
cheers
beda

[Ed Lake]

Post by beda pietanza

Post by Ed Lake
When discussing Time Dilation, the use of regular clocks
just leads to arguments about "seeing" some clock that is
in a space ship that is a billion miles away. And there is the
complication of the speed of light when viewing things that
are billions of miles away.
Back in May 2015, I wrote a paper about using a PULSAR
as a clock to measure Time Dilation. To simplify things,
I used a pulsar that pulses once ever 10 seconds when
viewed from earth. And I used a space ship that is traveling
at right angles to the pulsar, so that there is no change in
the pulse rate due to moving toward or away from the pulsar.
When the space ship starts to move at high speeds away from
the earth, time slows down on the space ship. Instead of
seeing the pulsar pulse once every 10 seconds, as the ship
accelerates faster and faster, the passengers see the pulsar
pulse once every 9 seconds, then once every 8 seconds,
etc., until they are at cruising speed and they see the pulsar
plus once every second. Then, after about 6 months, they
slow down, turn around, and repeat the speeding up process
to return to earth.
When they return to earth, due to Time Dilation, the passengers
on the space ship are about 1 year older than when they left on
their one year trip. But people on earth are TEN years older.
EVERYONE counted the same number of pulses from the
pulsar: 31,553,280. No one was ever ahead or behind anyone
else in time. No one FELT any effects of Time Dilation. But,
due to Time Dilation, people on the spaceship counted
31,553,280 pulses in 1 year, while people on earth counted
31,553,280 pulses in 10 years.
Here's my paper: https://vixra.org/pdf/1505.0234v1.pdf
Doe anyone see any fault in this thought experiment?

beda
when you use very high speed in a thought experiment, is to make evident a time dilatation
that at low speeds is negligible.
you thought experiment is impossible to realize because no high speed is permitted for macroscopic bodies
never has been seen or made any macroscopic body travel at speed higher than a very very small fraction of c
at high speed the atoms are depleted of their electrons and the binding forces of material objects would cease
their action and macro objects become just plasma like
in the accelerators no even atoms are accelerated but depleted nucleus

I used a space ship traveling at 95% of the speed of light because it
makes things easier to observe. The same experiment can be done at
much lower speeds, but then you need a way of counting pulses from
the pulsar other than just counting what you observe. You would
have to measure differences that are only tiny fractions of a second.

We on Earth are traveling toward the constellation Hydra at well over
a million miles an hour. And there is no problem with atoms being
depleted of their electrons.