Discussion:
Fluids in Electric Field: Perpetual Motion of the Second Kind
Pentcho Valev
2018-02-13 10:58:55 UTC
Fluids move wildly in an electric field:

"The Formation of the Floating Water Bridge including electric breakdowns"

"Making ionized air and ion wind" https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=gzjMwqKv8Gg

The fluid motion can obviously do work, and the crucial question is:

At the expense of what energy?

Answer: At the expense of ambient heat, in violation of the second law of thermodynamics.

Pentcho Valev
Helmut Wabnig
2018-02-13 11:29:41 UTC
On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 03:00:01 -0800 (PST), Pentcho Valev
Post by Pentcho Valev
"The Formation of the Floating Water Bridge including electric breakdowns"
http://youtu.be/17UD1goTFhQ
"Making ionized air and ion wind" https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=gzjMwqKv8Gg
At the expense of what energy?
Answer: At the expense of ambient heat, in violation of the second law of thermodynamics.
Pentcho Valev
Stupid, stupid Pentcho.

If you watch those videos carefully you will find
external power supplies connected to a mains wall outlet.
The energy comes from the nearest nuclear power plant.

Stupid, stupid Pentcho Valev.
w.
Bojovnik Háèem
2018-02-17 11:05:40 UTC
If you watch those videos carefully you will find external power
supplies connected to a mains wall outlet.
The energy comes from the nearest nuclear power plant.
Stupid, stupid Pentcho Valev.
You can't see electric energy, my stupid friend. Charge carriers, here say
electrons, are not photons. Those are different things.
benj
2018-02-17 14:03:00 UTC
Post by Bojovnik Háèem
If you watch those videos carefully you will find external power
supplies connected to a mains wall outlet.
The energy comes from the nearest nuclear power plant.
Stupid, stupid Pentcho Valev.
You can't see electric energy, my stupid friend. Charge carriers, here say
electrons, are not photons. Those are different things.
One can certainly observe the effects of electric energy, Kooker.
Stick your finger in a light socket and prove it for yourself!
Bojovnik Háèem
2018-02-17 14:13:07 UTC
Post by benj
Post by Bojovnik Háèem
If you watch those videos carefully you will find external power
supplies connected to a mains wall outlet.
The energy comes from the nearest nuclear power plant.
Stupid, stupid Pentcho Valev.
You can't see electric energy, my stupid friend. Charge carriers, here
say electrons, are not photons. Those are different things.
One can certainly observe the effects of electric energy, Kooker.
Stick your finger in a light socket and prove it for yourself!
Effects?? As the motion of a cantilever, is the CANTILEVER what you see,
and NOT the energy. You have to learn what you see, my good old freunde.
Pentcho Valev
2018-02-15 09:35:12 UTC
Water in an electric field automatically becomes a perpetual-motion machine of the second kind:

"A deviation from the second law of thermodynamics has been demonstrated experimentally for the first time. [...] To test the idea, the researchers put about 100 latex beads - each 6.3 µm across - into a WATER-FILLED CELL, which was placed on the stage of a microscope. The researchers focused a laser onto one of the beads, which induced a dipole moment in the bead and drew it towards the most intense region of the ELECTRIC FIELD in the laser beam." http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2002/jul/16/small-systems-defy-second-law

Nature: "Second law broken. Researchers have shown for the first time that, on the level of thousands of atoms and molecules, fleeting energy increases violate the second law of thermodynamics. [...] They found that over periods of time less than two seconds, variations in the random thermal motion of water molecules occasionally gave individual beads a kick. This increased the beads' kinetic energy by a small but significant amount, in apparent violation of the second law." http://www.nature.com/news/2002/020722/full/news020722-2.html

Scientific American: "Second Law of Thermodynamics Violated. [...] ...the water molecules interacted with the bead in such a way that energy was transferred from the liquid to the bead. These additional kicks used the random thermal motion of the water to do the work of moving the bead, in effect yielding something for nothing. For periods of movement lasting less than two seconds, the bead was almost as likely to gain energy from the water as it was to add energy to the reservoir, the investigators say." https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/second-law-of-thermodynam/

In an electric field, a non-conservative force (pressure) emerges in water. This pressure pushes in all directions and produces cyclical flows able to convert ambient heat into work, in violation of the second law of thermodynamics:

Wolfgang K. H. Panofsky, Melba Phillips, Classical Electricity and Magnetism, pp.115-116: "Thus the decrease in force that is experienced between two charges when they are immersed in a dielectric liquid can be understood only by considering the effect of the PRESSURE OF THE LIQUID ON THE CHARGES themselves." http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Electricity-Magnetism-Second-Physics/dp/0486439240?tag=viglink21401-20

"However, in experiments in which a capacitor is submerged in a dielectric liquid the force per unit area exerted by one plate on another is observed to decrease... [...] This apparent paradox can be explained by taking into account the DIFFERENCE IN LIQUID PRESSURE in the field filled space between the plates and the field free region outside the capacitor." http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/jk1/lectures/node46.html

Tai Chow, Introduction to Electromagnetic Theory: A Modern Perspective, p. 267: "The strictly electric forces between charges on the conductors are not influenced by the presence of the dielectric medium. The medium is polarized, however, and the interaction of the electric field with the polarized medium results in an INCREASED FLUID PRESSURE ON THE CONDUCTORS that reduces the net forces acting on them." http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-To-Electromagnetic-Theory-Perspective/dp/0763738271

Liquid Dielectric Capacitor [Note the turbulent motion between the plates]

"The Formation of the Floating Water Bridge including electric breakdowns"x http://youtu.be/17UD1goTFhQ

Pentcho Valev