Discussion:
Circular logic with clocks
Add Reply
s***@yahoo.com
2021-04-21 12:02:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In inertial reference frame F0 there is a clock, C0, centered at (0,0). An identical clock, C1, is traveling in a circular path around that point with angular velocity V as measured in F0. When the traveling clock C1 makes a complete circle, which clock shows the greater elapsed time or do they show the identical elapsed times?
Thanks,
David Seppala
Bastrop TX
rotchm
2021-04-21 12:55:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In inertial reference frame F0 there is a clock, C0, centered at (0,0). An identical clock, C1, is traveling in a circular path around that point with angular velocity V as measured in F0. When the traveling clock C1 makes a complete circle, which clock shows the greater elapsed time or do they show the identical elapsed times?
Thanks,
David Seppala
Bastrop TX
If you were to actually do such an exp, how would you go about it, to know "which clock shows the greater elapsed time "?
Icke Biggers
2021-04-21 13:57:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by rotchm
Post by s***@yahoo.com
In inertial reference frame F0 there is a clock, C0, centered at (0,0).
An identical clock, C1, is traveling in a circular path around that
point with angular velocity V as measured in F0. When the traveling
clock C1 makes a complete circle, which clock shows the greater elapsed
time or do they show the identical elapsed times?
Thanks,
David Seppala Bastrop TX
If you were to actually do such an exp, how would you go about it, to
know "which clock shows the greater elapsed time "?
Imbecile, in this configuration the traveling will elapse less, disregard
anything, brought back and compared at origo (0,0). And angular velocity
is omega, not V.
s***@yahoo.com
2021-04-21 14:43:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Icke Biggers
Post by rotchm
Post by s***@yahoo.com
In inertial reference frame F0 there is a clock, C0, centered at (0,0).
An identical clock, C1, is traveling in a circular path around that
point with angular velocity V as measured in F0. When the traveling
clock C1 makes a complete circle, which clock shows the greater elapsed
time or do they show the identical elapsed times?
Thanks,
David Seppala Bastrop TX
If you were to actually do such an exp, how would you go about it, to
know "which clock shows the greater elapsed time "?
Imbecile, in this configuration the traveling will elapse less, disregard
anything, brought back and compared at origo (0,0). And angular velocity
is omega, not V.
So if you say the traveling clock will show less elapsed time, then make the radius of the circle very very large. Then during any arc length the traveling clock will show less time as you say then the clock at the center of the circle. During this arc length let another clock in an inertial reference frame travel in a straight line with velocity V so that that clock and the clock traveling along the arc both have almost identical velocities except the clock traveling on the arc travels in a very slightly curved path. Do both of these clocks run at nearly the same rate with the clock traveling along the arc only very slightly slower?
David Seppala
Bastrop TX
rotchm
2021-04-21 14:46:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
So if you say the traveling clock will show less elapsed time,
idiot sepala, you just replied to the troll. Don't do that; DON'T STROKE THE TROLLS.
You got got, which shows that you don't have the brains to be a 'sensible' person.
Icke Biggers
2021-04-21 15:10:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
mentally retarded from birth, rotchm

Complaints-To: groups-***@google.com
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-
host=184.160.32.227;
posting-account=BHsbrQoAAAANJj6HqXJ987nOEDAC1EsJ
NNTP-Posting-Host: 184.160.32.22
Post by rotchm
Post by s***@yahoo.com
So if you say the traveling clock will show less elapsed time,
idiot sepala, you just replied to the troll. Don't do that; DON'T STROKE THE TROLLS.
You got got, which shows that you don't have the brains to be a
'sensible'
person.
YOu just crapped into your pants, stupid troll. YOu are a known idiot
around here, as I can read from the other different people. Nobody gives
a damn shit on what you say or what you think you say.
Icke Biggers
2021-04-21 15:04:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Post by Icke Biggers
Post by rotchm
If you were to actually do such an exp, how would you go about it, to
know "which clock shows the greater elapsed time "?
Imbecile, in this configuration the traveling will elapse less,
disregard anything, brought back and compared at origo (0,0). And
angular velocity is omega, not V.
So if you say the traveling clock will show less elapsed time, then make
the radius of the circle very very large. Then during any arc length
the
nOT SURE I can follow you, you have to have them synchronized over larger
distance, then compared at origo again. Otherwise your question makes not
much sense.
Rob Acraman
2021-04-22 11:49:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Icke Biggers
Post by rotchm
Post by s***@yahoo.com
In inertial reference frame F0 there is a clock, C0, centered at (0,0).
An identical clock, C1, is traveling in a circular path around that
point with angular velocity V as measured in F0. When the traveling
clock C1 makes a complete circle, which clock shows the greater elapsed
time or do they show the identical elapsed times?
Thanks,
David Seppala Bastrop TX
If you were to actually do such an exp, how would you go about it, to
know "which clock shows the greater elapsed time "?
Imbecile, in this configuration the traveling will elapse less, disregard
anything, brought back and compared at origo (0,0). And angular velocity
is omega, not V.
So if you say the traveling clock will show less elapsed time, then make the radius of the circle very very large. Then during any arc length the traveling clock will show less time as you say then the clock at the center of the circle. During this arc length let another clock in an inertial reference frame travel in a straight line with velocity V so that that clock and the clock traveling along the arc both have almost identical velocities except the clock traveling on the arc travels in a very slightly curved path. Do both of these clocks run at nearly the same rate with the clock traveling along the arc only very slightly slower?
David Seppala
Bastrop TX
Why compare to a clock at the centre ???

From your OP, let's say Alice is at the origin (0,0), and Bob is travelling in a circle with radius r - so going through (0,r), (r, 0), (0, -r), (-r, 0) and back to (0, r).

So how is that different from Bob instead going in a circle going through (0, 0), (-r, r), (-2r, 0), (-r, -r), and back to (0, 0) ???

The latter treatment matches exactly what Einstein wrote in OTEOMB, where (0,0) is the "point A" :

"If one of two synchronous clocks at A is moved in a closed curve with constant velocity until it returns to A, the journey lasting t seconds, then by the clock which has remained at rest the travelled clock on its arrival at A will be 1/2 tv^2/c^2 second slow."

Why would you think that there could be different results from a circle AROUND a "stationary" clock compared to a circle going through that "stationary" clock ?
s***@yahoo.com
2021-04-21 14:32:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by rotchm
In inertial reference frame F0 there is a clock, C0, centered at (0,0). An identical clock, C1, is traveling in a circular path around that point with angular velocity V as measured in F0. When the traveling clock C1 makes a complete circle, which clock shows the greater elapsed time or do they show the identical elapsed times?
Thanks,
David Seppala
Bastrop TX
If you were to actually do such an exp, how would you go about it, to know "which clock shows the greater elapsed time "?
Simple, when the moving clock crosses the positive y axis of F0, set both clocks to zero. When the moving clock once again crosses the y-axis of F0, record the time of both clocks.
David Seppala
Bastrop TX
rotchm
2021-04-21 14:44:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Post by rotchm
In inertial reference frame F0 there is a clock, C0, centered at (0,0). An identical clock, C1, is traveling in a circular path around that point with angular velocity V as measured in F0. When the traveling clock C1 makes a complete circle, which clock shows the greater elapsed time or do they show the identical elapsed times?
Thanks,
David Seppala
Bastrop TX
If you were to actually do such an exp, how would you go about it, to know "which clock shows the greater elapsed time "?
Simple, when the moving clock crosses the positive y axis of F0, set both clocks to zero.
Which "both clocks" ? C1 and (0,0)? Or C1 and (0,1) ?
Post by s***@yahoo.com
When the moving clock once again crosses the y-axis of F0, record the time of both clocks.
But C1 does not coincide with the clock at (0,0). This is why I ask which two clocks?
Try again.
Odd Bodkin
2021-04-21 15:40:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by rotchm
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Post by rotchm
Post by s***@yahoo.com
In inertial reference frame F0 there is a clock, C0, centered at
(0,0). An identical clock, C1, is traveling in a circular path around
that point with angular velocity V as measured in F0. When the
traveling clock C1 makes a complete circle, which clock shows the
greater elapsed time or do they show the identical elapsed times?
Thanks,
David Seppala
Bastrop TX
If you were to actually do such an exp, how would you go about it, to
know "which clock shows the greater elapsed time "?
Simple, when the moving clock crosses the positive y axis of F0, set both clocks to zero.
Which "both clocks" ? C1 and (0,0)? Or C1 and (0,1) ?
David, just to be really clear about this, he’s asking about SPECIFICS of
how you’d expect the clock at the center of the circle to know exactly when
the clock at the perimeter of the circle has crossed the y-axis of the
circle, in order to reset the clock.
Post by rotchm
Post by s***@yahoo.com
When the moving clock once again crosses the y-axis of F0, record the
time of both clocks.
But C1 does not coincide with the clock at (0,0). This is why I ask which two clocks?
Try again.
--
Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
s***@yahoo.com
2021-04-21 21:44:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Odd Bodkin
Post by rotchm
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Post by rotchm
Post by s***@yahoo.com
In inertial reference frame F0 there is a clock, C0, centered at
(0,0). An identical clock, C1, is traveling in a circular path around
that point with angular velocity V as measured in F0. When the
traveling clock C1 makes a complete circle, which clock shows the
greater elapsed time or do they show the identical elapsed times?
Thanks,
David Seppala
Bastrop TX
If you were to actually do such an exp, how would you go about it, to
know "which clock shows the greater elapsed time "?
Simple, when the moving clock crosses the positive y axis of F0, set both clocks to zero.
Which "both clocks" ? C1 and (0,0)? Or C1 and (0,1) ?
David, just to be really clear about this, he’s asking about SPECIFICS of
how you’d expect the clock at the center of the circle to know exactly when
the clock at the perimeter of the circle has crossed the y-axis of the
circle, in order to reset the clock.
Post by rotchm
Post by s***@yahoo.com
When the moving clock once again crosses the y-axis of F0, record the
time of both clocks.
But C1 does not coincide with the clock at (0,0). This is why I ask which two clocks?
Try again.
--
Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
In inertial reference frame F0, put a clock at rest in the center of the circle, and put an identical clock at rest where the y axis crosses the circle. Both of those clocks run at the identical rate. When the moving clock passes the clock that is sitting at rest on the circumference of the circle, record the time of that clock at rest and record the time of the clock traveling around the circumference of the circle. When the circling clock once again passes the clock that is at rest on the circumference of the circle record the elapsed time of each of those two clocks.
David Seppala
Bastrop TX
Odd Bodkin
2021-04-21 21:53:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Post by Odd Bodkin
Post by rotchm
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Post by rotchm
Post by s***@yahoo.com
In inertial reference frame F0 there is a clock, C0, centered at
(0,0). An identical clock, C1, is traveling in a circular path around
that point with angular velocity V as measured in F0. When the
traveling clock C1 makes a complete circle, which clock shows the
greater elapsed time or do they show the identical elapsed times?
Thanks,
David Seppala
Bastrop TX
If you were to actually do such an exp, how would you go about it, to
know "which clock shows the greater elapsed time "?
Simple, when the moving clock crosses the positive y axis of F0, set
both clocks to zero.
Which "both clocks" ? C1 and (0,0)? Or C1 and (0,1) ?
David, just to be really clear about this, he’s asking about SPECIFICS of
how you’d expect the clock at the center of the circle to know exactly when
the clock at the perimeter of the circle has crossed the y-axis of the
circle, in order to reset the clock.
Post by rotchm
Post by s***@yahoo.com
When the moving clock once again crosses the y-axis of F0, record the
time of both clocks.
But C1 does not coincide with the clock at (0,0). This is why I ask which two clocks?
Try again.
--
Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
In inertial reference frame F0, put a clock at rest in the center of the
circle, and put an identical clock at rest where the y axis crosses the
circle. Both of those clocks run at the identical rate. When the moving
clock passes the clock that is sitting at rest on the circumference of
the circle, record the time of that clock at rest and record the time of
the clock traveling around the circumference of the circle. When the
circling clock once again passes the clock that is at rest on the
circumference of the circle record the elapsed time of each of those two clocks.
David Seppala
Bastrop TX
Again, how in DETAIL does the fella sitting near the clock near the center
of the circle know “when” the clock at the perimeter has passed any point
out there on the perimeter, in order to record the time showing on the
clock at the center? It’s a good ways away, is it not?

If it helps, think of it this way. Suppose it was your job to watch a clock
and listen for the thunder from a lightning strike from a storm on the
horizon. You hear a thunderclap when the clock near you reads 11:23:07. You
write that down. Have you recorded the time when that lightning strike
happened?
--
Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
rotchm
2021-04-21 23:07:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
In inertial reference frame F0, put a clock at rest in the center of the circle, and put an identical clock at rest where the y axis crosses the circle. Both of those clocks run at the identical rate. When the moving clock passes the clock that is sitting at rest on the circumference of the circle, record the time of that clock at rest and record the time of the clock traveling around the circumference of the circle. When the circling clock once again passes the clock that is at rest on the circumference of the circle record the elapsed time of each of those two clocks.
David Seppala
Bastrop TX
OK, so the clock at (0,0) of F0 is irrelevant to your question. Only the one at (1,0) is relevant, right?
That is, C(1,0) and and C1 cross their paths twice, and you want the elapsed times?
Maciej Wozniak
2021-04-21 12:56:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In inertial reference frame F0 there is a clock, C0, centered at (0,0). An identical clock, C1, is traveling in a circular path around that point with angular velocity V as measured in F0. When the traveling clock C1 makes a complete circle, which clock shows the greater elapsed time or do they show the identical elapsed times?
We have GPS now, anyone can check that relativistic
bullshit is just some reality enchanting.
Al Coe
2021-04-21 15:00:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In inertial reference frame F0 there is a clock, C0, centered at (0,0). An identical clock, C1, is traveling in a circular path around that point with angular velocity V as measured in F0. When the traveling clock C1 makes a complete circle, which clock shows the greater elapsed time or do they show the identical elapsed times? (When the moving clock crosses the positive y axis of F0, set both clocks to zero. When the moving clock once again crosses the y-axis of F0, record the time of both clocks.)
As always, each time you use the word "when" to refer to simultaneous separate events, you need to specify the temporal foliation you are referring to. In terms of standard inertial coordinates x,y,t, in which C0 is stationary, and assuming that at t=t0 the readings of both clocks are set to zero and C1 crosses the positive y axis, and the next time C2 crosses the positive y axis is at t=t1, the reading of C0 at t=t1 will be t1, and the reading of C1 at t=t1 will be t1*sqrt(1-V^2/c^2).
Al Coe
2021-04-21 15:15:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In inertial reference frame F0 there is a clock, C0, centered at (0,0). An identical clock, C1, is traveling in a circular path around that point with angular velocity V as measured in F0. When the traveling clock C1 makes a complete circle, which clock shows the greater elapsed time or do they show the identical elapsed times? (When the moving clock crosses the positive y axis of F0, set both clocks to zero. When the moving clock once again crosses the y-axis of F0, record the time of both clocks.)
As always, every time you use the word "when" to refer to simultaneous separate events, you need to specify the temporal foliation you are referring to. In terms of standard inertial coordinates x,y,t, in which C0 is stationary, and assuming that at t=t0 the readings of both clocks are set to zero and C1 crosses the positive y axis, and the next time C2 crosses the positive y axis is at t=t1, the reading of C0 at t=t1 will be t1, and the reading of C1 at t=t1 will be t1*sqrt(1-V^2/c^2).
Then during any arc length the traveling clock will show less time as you say then the
clock at the center of the circle.
Again, in terms of inertial coordinate system x,y,t in which C0 is stationary, the rate of elapsed proper time for C0 is dtau/dt = 1 and the rate of elapsed proper time for C1 is dtau/dt = sqrt(1-V^2/c^2).
During this arc length let another clock [C2] in an inertial reference frame travel in a straight
line with velocity V so that that clock and the clock traveling along the arc both have
almost identical velocities except the clock traveling on the arc travels in a very slightly
curved path.
Yawn. This old canard. Are you, like, 10 years old?
Do both of these clocks run at nearly the same rate with the clock traveling
along the arc only very slightly slower?
Both clocks C1 and C2 run at the rate dtau/dt = sqrt(1-V^2/c^2). In general (flat spacetime), any clock moving at speed V in terms of inertial coordinates x,y,t runs at the rate dtau/dt = sqrt(1-V^2/c^2). Of course, in terms of inertial coordinates x',y',t' in which C2 is at rest (and C1 is momentarily at rest), clock C0 is moving at speed V, so it runs at the rate dtau/dt' = sqrt(1-V^2/c^2). A little while later, C1 will be at rest in a slightly different inertial coordinate system, x",y",t", and it will be running at the rate dtau/d" = 1, and clock C0 will be running at the rate dtau/dt" = sqrt(1-V^2/c^2). And so on.
Dono.
2021-04-21 23:07:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In inertial reference frame F0 there is a clock, C0, centered at (0,0). An identical clock, C1, is traveling in a circular path around that point with angular velocity V as measured in F0. When the traveling clock C1 makes a complete circle, which clock shows the greater elapsed time or do they show the identical elapsed times?
Thanks,
David Seppala
Bastrop TX
Sepallotto, crankoto

Think about this simple exercise this way:

-you add another clock on the circumference of the circle, let's call it C2
-you synchronize C2 with C0, this is very easy because the two clocks are at rest wrt each other
-before you put C1 in motion, you synchronize it with C2. this means that C0,C1 and C2 are all synchronized
-you put C1 in motion
-when C1 completes the circle, you compare it with C2, that should be easy because their positions will coincide
-conform SR, C1 will show less elapsed time than C2 (and than C0 , because C2 and C) show the SAME elapsed time)

DONE
Sylvia Else
2021-04-21 23:29:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
In inertial reference frame F0 there is a clock, C0, centered at (0,0). An identical clock, C1, is traveling in a circular path around that point with angular velocity V as measured in F0. When the traveling clock C1 makes a complete circle, which clock shows the greater elapsed time or do they show the identical elapsed times?
Thanks,
David Seppala
Bastrop TX
This is needlessly complicated.

Let clock C1 travel in a circle. Put clock C0 at some point on that
circle. When C1 and C0 first coincide, and set them to show time = 0.

Compare the shown times when they next coincide.

Sylvia.
Maciej Wozniak
2021-04-22 03:55:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sylvia Else
This is needlessly complicated.
Let clock C1 travel in a circle. Put clock C0 at some point on that
circle. When C1 and C0 first coincide, and set them to show time = 0.
Compare the shown times when they next coincide.
This is needlessly complicated. Since we have GPS all
You need is to check that the prophesies of Your
relativity are worthless.
Loading...